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Full-text: August 17 2001
Secret Service, protest zone, free speech zone
“Welcome to Western Governor Bush” (March 22 2001)

State of Michigan in the Eighth District Court for the County of Kalamazoo

Case No.: 01-05340 SM
People of the State of Michigan,)
Antoine Jennings, Defendant)

Excerpt of Jury Trial (Testimony of Wesley Carpenter and Michael Smith)

Before the Honorable Ann L. Hannon, District Judge Kalamazoo, Michigan – Friday, August 17, 2001


For the People: Ms. Marla T. Buckles, (P62638)
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
227 West Michigan Avenue
Kalamazoo, Michigan 49007
(616) 383-8900
For the Defendant: Mr. James B. Ford, (P26997)
North Church Street
Kalamazoo, Michigan 49007
(616) 342-9900
Recorded by: Ms. Judy Palmer, CEO 6735
Certified Electronic Operator
Transcribed by: Ms. Denise Bowers, CER 4106
Certified Electronic Recorder
(616) 383-8662 {p.2}

Exhibits: Identified Received

PX#1 Photograph 12 13 PX#2 Map 7 9

DX#A Map 24 DX#B Videotape {p.3}

Kalamazoo, Michigan

Friday, August 17, 2001 — 1:36 p.m.

(Prior proceedings recorded, but not transcribed)

(People’s Exhibits 1 and 2 marked before afternoon proceedings)

The Court. And we’re back on the record with file number 01-05340 SM, People v Antoine Jennings. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We are ready to begin with the taking of testimony at this time. And, Miss Buckles, you may call your first witness.

Ms. Buckles. Your Honor, I just want to run out in the hall. The People will be calling Captain Carpenter.

The Court. Thank you. Would you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear or affirm the testimony you’re going to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Carpenter. Yes.

The Court. Thank you. Would you have a seat in the witness stand, please. State your full name. Spell your last name for the record.

The Witness. My name is Wesley Carpenter, C-a-r-p-e-n-t-e-r. {p.4}

The Court. Thank you. Miss Buckles?

Wesley Carpenter

called by the People at 1:36 p.m., and sworn by the Court, testified:

Direct Examination

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Mr. Carpenter, can you tell the jury your occupation?

A. I am a police officer. I’m captain of the public safety with Western Michigan University {wiki}.

Q. And how long have you been employed as a public — a captain with Western Michigan University?

A. I’ve been a captain for 11 years.

Q. And all those years with Western Michigan?

A. As a captain, yes.

Q. Did you have any previous law enforcement experience?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And can you please describe that experience for the jury?

A. I began law enforcement in 1966 as a police officer with the City of Kalamazoo. In 1971, I worked for two years as an undercover narcotics officer with the metro narcotics unit, and in January of 1974, I went to work with the newly established police department at Western Michigan University as a detective. I went up through the ranks as a detective, sergeant, lieutenant in charge {p.5} of the criminal division for a number of years, and, in 1991, I became captain of public safety, and I now run the parking and service division.

Q. And you are, sir, an employee of Western Michigan?

A. Yes.

Q. And you are authorized by the university to act as a law enforcement agent for them?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you employed in your present capacity on March — in the month of March 2001?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. I’d like to draw your attention to March 27th, 2001. Can you tell the jury what was happening on the campus of Western Michigan at that time?

A. That was the day that President Bush was coming to campus to visit and attend a dinner in the recreation center that afternoon.

Q. And what was your assignment on this date?

A. I was in charge of the outside areas, all the public areas surrounding the recreation center, and in charge of all the officers that were assigned to that area.

Q. Now, were you working with any other law enforcement agencies in preparing for President Bush’s arrival?

A. Yes.

Q. And what agencies were those? {p.6}

A. The United States Secret Service and their advance team, working from the White House.

Q. And what did you and the Secret Service do to prepare for the President’s arrival?

A. They arrived approximately three days prior to his arrival, and we set up the established area surrounding inside and outside of the facility for the security of the arrival of the President. They established areas that public were not allowed to enter. They established areas for demonstrators. They established areas for the press, the news media and the public who had — ticket holders to actually enter the venue.

Q. And, without going into the vast instructions, what were the reasons why you were given these specific instructions?

A. For the security of the President so that there were no threats or any action taken against him or his motorcade.

Q. Now, have other officials visited Western Michigan?

A. Yes.

Q. And what other officials during your tenure have come to that university?

A. Former Vice President Bush, Sr., was on campus at one time. Candidate George Dukakis, I believe his name was, was there. There have been several other state and federal persons. {p.7}

Q. And, during these visits, are similar protocols taken?

A. Yes.

Q. And you indicated earlier in conjunction with the Secret Service and the White House, Western Michigan did establish a demonstration area for students?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, Officer, I’m going to move up a map that I have of the Western Michigan campus. This is marked as People’s proposed Exhibit Number — I can switch it around to 1.

The Court. Well, let’s — let’s leave it as marked.

Ms. Buckles. Okay.

The Court. This is 2.

Ms. Buckles. Two. Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Now, is this — does this fairly and accurately represent Western Michigan University’s campus?

A. Yes, it does.

Ms. Buckles. Can you guys see that — the jury?


By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Now, could you come out of the witness box? Can you show us where the demonstration area was located? There’s — I’m sorry. There’s pens I put in there for you. Sorry. {p.8}

The Court. Can the jury see —

Ms. Buckles. Can you see this (indicating)?

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Okay. Can you show me where — well, first of all, where was the location of the first —

A. First of all, this is Stadium Drive as it comes into the City of Kalamazoo (indicating). This is the light at Oliver and Stadium (indicating). The motorcade was coming in Stadium Drive onto campus on Oliver Street, and then they were going to go through this intersection and into this loading dock area on this side of what is known as the recreation center (indicating). This is the field house where they hold the basketball games (indicating).

Q. Could you please draw where — a square around the recreational center?

A. This area just to the west of the recreation center, there were metal barricades set up in this fashion, and this was designated and marked as a demonstration area (indicating).

Q. Okay.

A. And we had specific instructions from the Secret Service that any demonstrators would have to demonstrate from that established area.

Q. Okay.

The Court. Before Officer Carpenter talks any {p.9} more about the exhibit, either we’ll have it admitted or not. Do you wish to have it admitted?

Ms. Buckles. Yes, your Honor. I’d move for admission of the exhibit.

The Court. Any objection, Mr. Ford?

Mr. Ford. No objection.

The Court. Exhibit 2 is admitted.

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Continue.

A. This was the established demonstration area (indicating). Michigan Avenue sidewalk was closed on the south side so that anyone coming down Michigan Avenue were directed by police officers that, if they wanted to demonstrate, they had to go to this area (indicating), or they had to go to the other side of Michigan Avenue to continue walking.

Q. And, again, what was the purpose of that, those instructions?

A. To keep this area where the President was going to arrive secure so that there wouldn’t be any threats .

Q. Now, was there any area that authorized persons were allowed only?

A. Yes.

Q. And where was that area at?

A. This — there was a roped-off area up the side of this drive, and there’s a fence along the front of this {p.10} parking lot (indicating). This was a secured parking lot for VIP passes and for Secret Service personnel to park their vehicles (indicating).

Q. Can you please draw a triangle around that area so that the jury knows? And that was an authorized person only?

A. Correct.

Q. Who would they consider — thank you. Thank you. You may sit down. Who would be considered authorized persons to enter that area?

A. Persons who had Secret Service, governmental credentials and persons who had a VIP parking pass, such as the governor of the State of Michigan, state representatives and legislators, and we also let some handicapped persons go into that area after we checked them out.

Q. Now, on that particular date in reference to the recreational center, where were you located? What were you doing?

A. The plan was that the 800 people that were arriving to attend the function with passes parked up at Lawson Ice Arena, and we had Metro Transit buses to bring them down to the facility, and they unloaded by this front entrance right here off of Oliver Street (indicating).

Q. Okay.

A. We again had metal barriers all around that area so that 25 they were kind of in cattle fashion, herded into the {p.11} recreational center, and they had to go through metal detectors at that point.

Q. Were you in charge of that operation?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Thank you, Officer.

A. And that’s where I was at the time.

Q. Okay. Now, around 11:30 a.m., 11:45 a.m., did something happen that drew your attention away from your assignment?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you tell the jury what happened?

A. I observed a group of approximately 15 persons carrying placards, signs on wooden sticks and so forth, coming up Western Avenue toward that intersection.

Q. And, at that point, who appeared to be leading the demonstration?

A. The defendant.

Q. And you are pointing to Antoine Jennings?

A. Antoine Jennings, yes.

Ms. Buckles. Let the record reflect that he has identified the defendant?

The Court. The record may so show.

Ms. Buckles. Thank you.

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Now, is Mr. Jennings a student of Western Michigan {p.12} University?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. And have you seen Mr. Jennings prior to the demonstration?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And how have you — in what manner have you seen Mr. Jennings prior?

A. Mr. Jennings has come to my office in the parking services building on numerous occasions to have discussion with me concerning parking tickets that he had received. I also had contact with him when he was a member of the Western Student Association at various meetings and functions. I also attended —

(Interruption in recording)

A. — characterize them as run-ins. I’ve had —

Q. Well, and —

A. I’ve had contact with him —

Q. Contact with him. I’m sorry.

A. — and done business with him on a professional basis.

Q. And — and, during those — you would describe those contacts with him as positive or negative?

A. I would describe them as positive.

Q. Now, I’m going to show you what has been marked as People’s proposed Exhibit Number 1. This is a copy of a picture from Western Times — Western Herald? {p.13}

A. Yes.

Q. Now, have you — did — did that — do you recognize the individual in that photograph?

A. I recognize the defendant as being the person in the front of that group, yes.

Q. Does that photograph fairly and accurately depict what you saw on March 27th?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you tell the jury what that photo shows?

The Court. Do you wish to have it admitted?

Ms. Buckles. Yes, your Honor, we would.

The Court. Any objection to the admission?

Mr. Ford. No objection.

The Court. Exhibit Number — this is 1?

Ms. Buckles. Yes, your Honor.

The Court. Exhibit 1 is admitted.

The Witness. This photo depicts a group of apparent demonstrators carrying placards and signs that I observed approaching the intersection that I have described as Oliver and Western Avenue.

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Now, prior to you actually having contact with those demonstrators, did anyone else have contact with them to tell them not to come up the Western/Oliver secured area?

Mr. Ford. Your Honor, I’m going to object to {p.14} the hearsay, unless this witness had actual — saw, heard, whatever.

Ms. Buckles. Your Honor, it goes to the state of the mind of the officer who later on had contact with the defendant.

The Court. The objection is sustained unless you can lay a foundation that the officer had knowledge that the — if there was a warning.

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Did you have knowledge of other officers talking to those defendants?

A. Not specifically these demonstrators, no.

Q. Okay. When did you — when were you drawn to the demonstrators? Where were they at when you first saw them?

A. They were approaching the intersection and attempted to go on into the secured area that we had roped off and were protecting with police officers.

Q. Okay. And, at that time, did you see any officers try to prevent them from coming into the secured area?

A. I saw officers in the intersection, and I don’t know if — what their contact was.

Q. But eventually you were drawn away from your duties to assess the situation?

A. Yes, I was. {p.15}

Q. And what — what exactly were the demonstrators doing as they approached the secured area?

A. They were chanting and making noise and carrying their placards as they marched.

Q. Do you know exactly what they were saying or what they were chanting?

A. Several of them had different agendas that they were demonstrating against. Some were for political things. Some were for — against taxes. Some were union representation workers, I believe.

Q. And were the actions of the demonstrators — these demonstrators disrupting the event that was held at the Western recreational center?

A. They were disruptive in that they were making a lot of noise and being loud. The function hadn’t actually started at that time. The patrons were still entering the building, and, of course, it got everyone’s attention.

Q. Okay. And where exactly were the demonstrators in relationship to the — the recreational center where the people were entering?

A. I’ll have to show you on the map once again.

Q. That’s no problem. Could you use a different pen, though? Could you — could you use the one — the blue pen perhaps? {p.16}

A. The demonstrators, when I first observed them, were coming — had come around the corner of what is known as the field house on Western Avenue.

Mr. Ford. We’re blocking these folks right here (indicating).

Ms. Buckles. Okay. Sorry. Let me see, because I want to see what he’s —

Mr. Ford. If you move around a little bit —

The Court. Maybe you can move it closer. I don’t have to see it. If you can move it closer to the jury, that would be —

Ms. Buckles. Okay. Okay. Great.

The Court. — probably useful.

The Witness. They were marching this area and up toward this intersection (indicating), and I was at this intersection (indicating), and this is the secured area (indicating), and they — I didn’t have a problem with them being there at that point in time, except they continued on and tried to go through this area (indicating).

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. And, at that point, what did you do?

A. I went over across the street from where I was over here (indicating). Then I stopped them, and I talked to them.

Q. And what did you say to the demonstrators? {p.17}

A. I told them that that was a secured area and they could — they could not go any farther, that that was the area that was off limits, and I told them that they had to go to the demonstration area that was set up for their — for the purpose that they were there.

Q. And did they go when you said this?

A. No, they didn’t.

Q. And did you give the demonstrators any warning?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what warning did you give the demonstrators?

A. I told them that, if they didn’t comply and go to the appropriate area, that they could be arrested.

Q. And how many times did you give this warning — warning to the demonstrators?

A. Three or four times at that time.

Q. Now, after the warning — this warning to the demonstrators, what did most of the demonstrators do?

A. They did what I asked. They went back and went behind the yellow rope along the road to an area that I felt was appropriate at that time.

Q. Now, did anyone refuse your direct order?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was the person who refused?

A. The defendant.

Q. So, out of 15 people, the defendant was the only one who {p.18} refused?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you tell the jury what the defendant did after you told him to leave the area?

A. He told me that he was a student at Western Michigan University and that this was his campus and he could go anywhere he wished.

Q. Did you advise at that time to the defendant that he was currently in a secured area?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what did the defendant do after that?

A. He just kept yelling louder and louder that he — he could go anywhere he wanted.

Q. Did he move any deeper into the secured area?

A. Yes, he did. He continued on into the secured area.

Q. After — and this is after your orders —

A. Yes.

Q. — to stop? Did anyone else other than the defendant move into the secured area?

A. No.

Q. Now, did you speak directly — you personally speak directly with the defendant?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And how many times did you tell the defendant that he was in a secured area? {p.19}

A. At least four times after the rest of them had left.

Q. And did you warn the defendant, if he continued to not comply with your orders, that he would be arrested?

A. I absolutely did.

Q. And, again, what did the defendant say to this?

A. He became argumentative and wanted to argue about if he could — why he couldn’t go into there and that it was his campus, and he kept saying, you’re only doing this because I’m carrying a sign or I’m demonstrating, and I kept telling him that this was a secured area, and it was for the protection of the President, and he had to comply with the rules that had been set up by the Secret Service.

Q. Now, based on your prior dealings — positive dealings with the defendant, were you surprised by his actions?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. And why?

A. I had always found Antoine to be very cooperative with me. I’ve done lots of things to help him out. I have voided 12 parking tickets for him that he didn’t feel were just. I have bent over backwards to be helpful to him in all of his dealings at the university, and I was totally shocked that he was reacting to me in that manner at that time.


The Court. Let me interrupt you at this point. {p.20} The jury should not hold it against Mr. Jennings if he got a parking ticket. This testimony is admitted only for the purpose of showing whatever past relationship there’s been between Officer Carpenter and Mr. Jennings. People get parking tickets. They’re certainly not — they’re not relevant here.

Ms. Buckles. Exactly. Thank you, your Honor.

The Court. Thank you.

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. Now, did the defendant ever — did the defendant ever ask why he was going to be arrested?

A. Not directly, no.

Q. Can you describe the defendant’s tone of voice during this entire contact?

A. Well, at that time, after attention was drawn to the situation, several news media people moved in with cameras and were directly in front of Antoine and myself videotaping what was happening, and this seemed to incite him to continue resisting in complying with what I was asking him. It appeared to me that he was doing this for the attention that he was getting from the news media.

Q. And, again, did — after giving the defendant warnings to leave, what did you have to do?

A. I continued telling him, you’re going to be arrested, you’re going to be arrested; go to the other area where {p.21} the other demonstrators went, and he refused and refused, and finally I signaled and called one of our officers over and told him that he had to be removed from the area. At that time, he was put in handcuffs and led away.

Q. And, at the time that he was arrested, how was the defendant behaving?

A. He did not resist in any way. He put his hands behind him, and they walked him away. He continued talking and verbally resisting.

Q. So he was still argumentative?

A. Argumentative, yes.

Q. And what officer arrested him?

A. Michael Smith.

Q. Now, after the defendant was arrested, did he ever come back to the demonstration area?

A. I saw him about an hour later after he posted bond. I saw him on the north side of Michigan Avenue on the City of Kalamazoo side of the street, along with many, many other — probably 100 other people.

Q. Now, did you have any problems with him being in this area of Michigan Avenue?

A. I did not, no.

Q. And why did you not have any problem with him being there? {p.22}

A. He was not within a restricted area. He was on a public street.

Q. Captain Carpenter, what was the purpose of having the officers there at the — at the recreational center?

A. We were there to enforce the secured areas. Any time you have demonstrators, they are carrying signs on sticks, and those are strictly prohibited because they can be used as weapons. They can be thrown at the motorcade. They can smash windows. They can hurt people, and so the policy of the Secret Service is that they cannot be within a certain area of the motorcade.

Q. And was the purpose of — was your purpose there to actually arrest the demonstrators for what they were saying?

A. No.

Q. Were you against having the demonstrators in the established area?

A. No.

Q. Now, you said there were 15 people at the demonstration. Did you arrest all 15 other people?

A. No.

Q. And why not?

A. The other people complied with my request to become lawful.

Q. Now, the area — I just want to clarify — of Western and {p.23} Oliver, that is located on Western Michigan University’s campus, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that considered university property?

A. Yes.

Q. And why is that considered university property?

A. Because we — the university built it. We maintain it, and it’s part of our state property.

Q. Now, again, when you first made contact with the defendant, did you intend to arrest him?

A. No.

Ms. Buckles. Thank you. No further questions of this witness.

The Court. Mr. Ford?

Mr. Ford. Thank you, your Honor. Now, does anybody know, the exhibits, do we keep going numerically or how would you like to do it?

The Court Recorder: No. It would be Defendant’s Exhibit 1 —

Mr. Ford. Okay.

The Court Recorder: — if you have anything to admit.

The Court. Actually, why don’t we make it Defendant’s A; so we don’t have two “1’s.”

Mr. Ford. This is probably a little bigger map {p.24} here.

The Court. Mr. Ford, before you attach it there, let Judy put the evidence sticker on it. That might help.

(At 1:59 p.m., Defendant’s Exhibit A marked)

Mr. Ford. Bear with me for just a minute, please. Can everyone see that?



By Mr. Ford:

Q. Now, Captain Carpenter, maybe on this somewhat larger map we can try to repeat some of the drawings if you’d come down here, please.

A. Do you want me to add some marks?

Q. Sure.

A. Okay.

Q. Yeah, if you have a blue — I think that’s what you used before — mark those out, these individuals, with Antoine to — down to where you were.

A. The route that I saw them take?

Q. Can everybody see?

A. Do you want me to mark where I actually saw them?

Q. Sure.

A. Okay.

Q. And that’s — wait. I think I’ve got to turn this a little bit so they can see. Speak up if you have {p.25} trouble.

A. This is the marked demonstration area on the west side (indicating). I was at this location (indicating). I first saw the group as they rounded the edge of the field house, coming in this location (indicating), and my first contact with them was right at this point (indicating), which was the secured area. There’s a rope that goes down here (indicating), and there’s a fence all along in front of this parking lot (indicating), and this area over in here was secured as well as this area (indicating) .

Q. Do you have a red marker?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say there was a yellow rope?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And would you do that in red?

A. There was a yellow rope that went all the way down here (indicating) and connected up to the corner of this fence right here (indicating).

Q. You know, I think the top of this map is north —

A. North, yes.

Q. — roughly? South down here (indicating)?

A. Yes.

Q. So the yellow rope, then, was running roughly east and west on the north side of Oliver Street? {p.26}

A. There was rope around both sides of this road.

Q. On both sides of it?

A. Both sides, but the one that I had talked about previously was right here (indicating).

Q. Now, why don’t you maybe use black and mark where the secure area was.

A. From this corner of this building, this sidewalk and this side of Michigan Avenue, down to this entire parking lot and then back up here (indicating), and then this demonstration area (indicating), this was the secured area down to the corner of the field house so that no public personnel — unauthorized personnel could cut through here (indicating), and then actually this building is still in use (indicating), but the people had to enter from this end (indicating). We didn’t let anyone go in through here or here (indicating).

Q. Okay. So the area right here (indicating) on the south side of Oliver Street — could you back up a little bit?

A. Sure.

Q. This was not a secure area on the south side of Oliver Street (indicating)?

A. Just the roadway part because, over in here (indicating) people could have been if they wanted.

Q. So this was all open to the public over here (indicating)? {p.27}

A. As long as they were behind the ropes.

Q. Well, where was — where — was the rope along the street, is that it?

A. Right, right here (indicating).

Q. Okay. And so they could have stayed on the south side of Oliver Street? That was all open to the public?

A. As long as they weren’t demonstrating.

Q. Ah. And that — that gets to the heart of the matter, I guess.

A. Right.

Q. This was all open to the public here (indicating)?

A. Correct.

Q. And anybody could have gone down to this area (indicating) and stood and watched —

A. Yes.

Q. — the President?

A. Yes.

Q. But what happens if somebody comes into this area and they hold up a sign?

A. If it’s on sticks or wooden — anything that could be used as a weapon, then they have to go back to the demonstration area. They’re not allowed to bring them down there into that area.

Q. And a sign without a stick?

A. It was my understanding the Secret Service said all {p.28} demonstrators had to be in this area (indicating).

Q. So, even if they don’t —

A. That were — that were — that was our instructions.

Q. Even if they don’t have sticks —

A. Correct.

Q. — they can’t go in the area that’s otherwise open to the public?

A. That was the instructions we were given.

Q. And, in fact, did it go beyond sticks: anybody using their voice had to go to this area?

A. No. No.

Q. You never — you never heard the Secret Service say anybody who holds a sign or uses their voice has to go to the back side of the building?

Ms. Buckles. Objection as to hearsay as to what the Secret Service told him.

The Court. Hearsay is for the truth of the matter. This is — well, is it admitted for the truth of the matter?

Ms. Buckles. That was my —

The Court. I think it probably is. A person who has to — is vocalizing has to leave. That would be for the truth of the matter, and, for that reason, the objection —

Mr. Ford. Let me ask it this way. {p.29}

The Court. Okay. Rephrase it.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. Did you hear the Secret Service tell any of the demonstrators that, if they used a sign or their voice, they had to go to the demonstration area?

A. No, I didn’t.

Q. And you would never have said that?

A. (No verbal response)

Q. You would not — you would have allowed them to stay here (indicating) if they were just using their voice?

A. Yes.

Q. But not if they had a sign?

A. Correct.

Q. Even if it didn’t have a stick?

A. Correct.

Q. And a sign without a stick is no threat to anyone, is it?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Okay. But the Secret Service didn’t want anybody — and this was your understanding and the rule that you were enforcing —

A. Exactly.

Welcome to Western Governor Bush

Antoine Jennings' sign (March 22 2001)

Q. — nobody who was critical of the President could be seen in this area; they had to go behind the building?

A. That’s correct.

Q. And this was an order that you — or not an order — this {p.30} was the request of the Secret Service?

A. It was an order of the Secret Service.

Q. Well, can they order you what to do on your own campus?

A. Yes, when it involves the President.

Q. They set the rules, and you enforce them?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Who in the Secret Service set the rule that they would not allow a demonstrator in the area that was otherwise open to the public?

A. I don’t know their names.

Q. Who told you?

A. Secret Service that was in charge.

Q. Were there Secret Service agents with you at the scene?

A. No.

Q. There was nobody by the building?

A. No.

Q. Who else was with you there?

A. I was all by myself.

Q. And there were no Secret Service agents in this area?

A. There were Secret Service agents all over down here (indicating). They were up on the parking structure with rifles. They were — they were all over.

Q. But nobody came down at the point where you arrested Antoine?

A. Not that I’m aware of. {p.31}

Q. Now, you talk about this route. As they walk down this street, they were in a street where they had every right to be at this point?

A. At that point, yes, sir.

Q. Well, they had signs, didn’t they?

A. Pardon me?

Q. They had signs?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. So the couldn’t be on the street, could they?

A. They — they had to be told where they could go.

Q. Well, as they came down the street, how would they know that they’re going into an area where you can’t have signs?

A. Because they had already been told by officers up here (indicating) that directed them down there.

Q. Well, now you — you weren’t up there, were you?

A. No, but you asked me that question, sir.

Q. Okay. But you weren’t there, and you didn’t see it or hear it?

A. No, but I know that was —

Q. Were there any signs that said, “No protestors”?

A. No.

Q. And were you allowing students and other members of the public to walk freely —

A. No. {p.32}

Q. — through this area?

A. No.

Q. They couldn’t come down the street?

A. No one was allowed — no one was allowed between this point and that point or any of this area (indicating).

Q. Were they allowed to walk through here (indicating)?

A. No.

Q. So there would have been no students milling around the area (indicating)?

A. No, sir.

Q. Nobody with backpacks?

A. No.

Q. Nobody with bicycles?

A. (No verbal response)

Q. And where would they have been stopped?

A. They would have been stopped all along these perimeters (indicating) where police officers were stationed.

Q. Did you have police officers stationed down here (indicating)?

A. Yep, all along this area (indicating).

Q. And so anybody that came through here (indicating), in well —

A. The road was open.

Q. So anybody could ride a bicycle or have a backpack or walk right down the street? {p.33}

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Now, you said that this group was loud and making noise?

A. Yes.

Q. Hard to — hard to qualify, I suppose, but how loud?

A. Well, loud enough so that I could hear them.

Q. Where could — where did you hear them? Where were they when you heard them?

A. Right when they came around the end of this building and parking lot (indicating) when I first observed them.

Q. And you’re clear up here (indicating)?

A. I’m up here (indicating).

Q. Now, that is how far away? A couple hundred yards?

A. No.

Q. How far?

A. It’s maybe 75 to 100 yards maximum.

Q. And you could hear them —

A. Yes.

Q. — where you were?

A. Yes.

Q. And was it loud enough that you found it objectionable and a distraction?

Ms. Buckles. I guess objection, your Honor, as to relevancy. He was enforcing Secret Service orders.

Mr. Ford. Your Honor, he —

The Court. Well, one of the charges is {p.34} disturbing the peace, and, for that reason, that objection is overruled.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. Was this loud enough as you saw them come around the side of this building (indicating) that it was — you considered it to be disruptive?

A. No.

Q. At what point did it become loud enough that you thought it was disruptive?

A. At the point that they were actually arguing with me directly across from the 800 people who were trying to go into the building. That’s when I thought it became disruptive.

Q. Because of the noise?

A. Because of the noise and the actions of the people. Everybody’s attention was drawn to that situation.

Q. Well, is it because they were watching these people or because the people were making so much noise that they were disruptive?

A. Well, any time — I think it’s because you see a police action and everybody stops and watches it.

Q. So the police action might have distracted their attention, but nothing that these demonstrators did would have distracted anybody standing in line there, would it?

A. Not necessarily. {p.35}

Q. Because they weren’t — they weren’t being loud and boisterous, were they?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. And loud and boisterous enough that it was a — you considered it to be a nuisance?

A. No.

Q. No?

A. I didn’t. I work on campus. I hear people with loud voices all the time.

Q. So it wasn’t —

A. That was not — the reason that I had any contact with them was not due to the noise.

Q. So you talked about them being loud and disruptive, and indeed, that wasn’t a problem at all, was it?

A. It — it was not a problem to me, no.

Q. Okay. At some point, you went up and talked with Antoine, didn’t you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And can you tell us — show us exactly where Antoine was when you first physically made contact with him?

A. The entire group of demonstrators went past this — the offices — officers that were standing here attending their other duties, and came into this secured area, right into here (indicating), past the line that had been set up. I simply walked across the street and very {p.36} politely asked them to please move to the demonstration area or at least, when they became argumentative with me, back behind this rope line, at least temporarily until we could get the area secured.

Q. Back behind the rope line?

A. Right, off to the side.

Q. That’s in the secure area?

A. That is behind this rope line (indicating). This is a secured area out in here (indicating), and there was another rope. This area in here (indicating) was just to protect the roadway coming in.

Q. Oh. So these — these — these ropes right here (indicating) were not part of the secure area?

A. Those — those were to keep people back away from the road from the motorcade, okay?

Q. Okay. But this was not a secure area (indicating)?

A. Not necessarily.

Q. Well, tell me where the secure area was.

A. Right here (indicating), this entire area that’s marked off.

Q. Okay. So it was the — this is a parking lot (indicating)?

A. Yes.

Q. So the secure area, then, was along the south edge of the parking lot? {p.37}

A. Right.

Q. And —

A. And this — we didn’t want people —

Q. In the roadway.

A. — getting near the roadway, yes.

Q. So they couldn’t be in the parking lot. They couldn’t be in the roadway?

A. Right. They could stand over here (indicating) along the fence — the rope line.

Q. So they could have stood anywhere —

A. Along that rope line.

Q. — along this area (indicating) —

A. Yes.

Q. — south of the parking lot and north of the roadway?

A. Right. In fact, there were people there.

Q. And that was open to the public?

A. Yes.

Q. Antoine could have stayed there?

A. As long as he wasn’t demonstrating.

Q. As long as he didn’t have a sign?

A. Right.

Q. Now, we’ll get back to that in a minute.

A. Okay.

Q. But put an “X,” if you would, right where Antoine was standing when you first talked with him. {p.38}

A. He was just north of the intersection, right here (indicating) by the — beside the road.

Q. Was he — he wasn’t in the road?

A. No. He was on a little grassy strip inside of the fence.

Q. Okay. And everybody else was where?

A. Well, they were all — they were all here (indicating), and then, since I was the only one there talking to them, I convinced the rest of the group to move back up here (indicating) and get out behind the yellow rope, and then, when I got done dealing with the situation, an officer escorted them back up to the demonstration area.

Q. So now, the yellow rope went where, right to the edge of the parking lot?

A. There was — there was one across the edge of the parking lot and one up the side of the road.

Q. And they could get in between these yellow ropes?

A. If — if they went under them or around them.

Q. And there wasn’t any rope across here (indicating), was there?

A. Yes. This rope (indicating) went all the way and hooked up to the fence right there at the corner (indicating).

Q. This yellow went up to the fence by — it’s a permanent fence?

A. There’s a permanent ground fence there.

Q. But, in this grassy area, was there any rope roping off {p.39} the grassy area where Antoine was?

A. He was inside of the fenced area towards the roadway.

Q. He was between the fence and the roadway?

A. He was in this area (indicating).

Q. Okay. On the grassy strip?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you talk to him at that area?

The Court. Yeah.

Mr. Ford. Okay.

The Court. Just make — I understand Officer Carpenter is in between —

The Witness. I’m sorry.

The Court. No. Just —

By Mr. Ford:

Q. Let me — let me — this probably violates some rule. Let me try to summarize. You were saying that there was a fence line along the parking lot?

A. Yes.

Q. And Antoine was on the grass between that fence and the roadway —

A. Yes.

Q. — correct?

A. Yes.

Mr. Ford. Everybody up to speed on that?


By Mr. Ford: {p.40}

Q. Okay. Now how long did you talk to him at that area?

A. Maybe two minutes.

Q. And was he polite?

A. He basically did not — he ignored me. So I don’t know what you mean by polite.

Q. Well, did he raise his voice?

A. Yes.

Q. He did?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He was yelling that he was a student and he could go wherever he wanted on campus, that it was his campus.

Q. During the first two minutes?

A. Yes, before he was arrested.

Q. Okay. Now, was he arrested at the end of the two minutes, or was it after that?

A. It was approximately two minutes from the beginning of my contact until he was actually arrested.

Q. Okay. Now, the beginning of the contact was right where that “X” is —

A. Yes.

Q. — correct? Can — I mean, we don’t know what you mean by yelling. Can you duplicate for us — yell as Antoine did?

Ms. Buckles. Your Honor, I guess objection as to relevancy. This is a disturbance. It’s loud. The {p.41} volume — it’s a disturbance.

The Court. I’m not going to have Officer Carpenter —

Ms. Buckles. Thank you, your Honor.

The Court. — scream in the courtroom. This is a complete — a different environment. I’m not going to have him scream.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. Well, I guess there’s no way for us to know what you mean by screaming then, is there? Was it — well, let’s try this and do the question another way. Was he — was he yelling at the top of his lungs?

A. No.

Q. Close to it?

A. Pretty close.

Q. Pretty close to the top of his lungs, about as loud as he could, maybe not quite, something that you could have heard a couple hundred yards away?

A. Right.

Q. Two hundred yards away very clearly. People anywhere in this area would have heard him screaming at you?

A. Yes. Would have heard him yelling, yes.

Q. And was that right at the beginning? When you met with him he started screaming at you right at the beginning?

A. It was after the rest of the demonstrators had left. {p.42} They had complied with my request. Antoine and I were the only ones left standing. He refused to leave the area that I was requesting him to leave.

Q. You say they left. Where did they go?

A. They went back here (indicating) once again and went behind this yellow rope area (indicating).

Q. So they were — what? — 10 — 10 feet away —

A. Yes.

Q. — 15 feet away?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they yelling?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Now, were there other people in this grassy area?

A. No.

Q. Ever?

A. Eventually other police officers came.

Q. Okay. But, when you first met — when Antoine was in the grassy area, where were the rest of the demonstrators?

A. Once again, sir, they went over here (indicating) behind the yellow rope.

Q. So, as soon as they got there, they all got in this area —

A. Yes.

Q. — between the yellow ropes?

A. Yes. {p.43}

Q. And Antoine was sitting — was standing right here (indicating)?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you tell him that he could go between these yellow ropes?

A. I told him that he had to comply with my request to get in a non-secured area.

Q. Well, how does he know where a secured area is?

A. I was pointing it out to him, sir, and showing him.

Q. Did you tell him he had to go between these two yellow ropes (indicating)?

A. I told him he had to get behind the yellow ropes, yes.

Q. Well, you’ve got two ropes. What’s behind it?

A. It’s where everyone else was, right here (indicating).

Q. So all of these other people went in an area where they were welcome to stay?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

A. It was not the demonstration area.

Q. Okay. So you were just as unhappy with them in this non-21 secured area as you were with Antoine standing here on the grass?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were more unhappy with him?

A. Yes, sir. {p.44}

Q. Okay. Why?

A. Because he did not comply with what I was asking him to do.

Q. Well, didn’t you tell the other people that they had to leave, too?

A. I told them to go behind the yellow rope, and they did.

Q. You meet Antoine?

A. Yes.

Q. And does he start yelling at you right at the very beginning?

A. No.

Q. How long does it take before he starts yelling at you?

A. He wasn’t actually yelling at me, sir.

Q. Well, he was — okay. Before he started yelling.

A. After the other demonstrators left and the news media people moved in.

Q. They moved back about ten feet?

A. Yes.

Q. And then he starts yelling, almost at the top of his voice?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you consider that to be disturbing the peace?

A. No.

Q. Now, you told — told us, I think, and you wrote it in your police report that, not only didn’t he go between {p.45} the ropes, but that he moved deeper into the secured area.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you show us where he went eventually, but let me ask you, were you standing between him and the secured area?

A. I was standing on the roadside trying to talk to him. The news cameras were in front of him.

Q. Were you in the road or on the grass?

A. I was in the road.

Q. Okay. And then did he try to get around you to get into the secured area?

A. I didn’t try and stop him.

Q. Oh. I didn’t ask you that. I said, did he try to go around you?

A. He didn’t — he didn’t have to go around me.

Q. Well, where did he go?

A. He went directly north, right back up on the grass.

Q. How far — how far did he go?

A. Oh, about ten more feet, I think.

Q. And how long into the meeting was that, that he moved?

A. It was at the time that the other demonstrators left the area.

Q. Well, you meet him, and roughly how many seconds — were there other demonstrators around him at the time when you first met him? {p.46}

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. How long did it take for them to move into this area (indicating)?

A. Just a matter of maybe a half a minute once I told them —

Q. Thirty seconds?

A. — a couple times. Yes.

Q. And then he started to scream?

A. Then we had our two-minute confrontation, yes.

Q. And was it at the end of the two minutes that he moved deeper?

A. It was during that time that I was continually telling him he had to leave —

Q. You were —

A. — that he moved deeper.

Q. Okay. So, for — for a minute and a half, you were talking to him; you were facing him?

A. Right.

Q. And was he trying to walk away from you deeper into this restricted area?

A. Not all the time.

Q. Okay. But — but gradually?

A. He did — he did —

Q. You’d talk, and he would move? Then you would talk, and he would move, and he kept moving 10, 15 feet? How far?

A. I was talking to him. I was giving him direct orders {p.47} that he had to leave or he would be arrested. He responded to me that this is his campus; he’s a student; he can go wherever he wants.

Q. I didn’t ask you that. I asked you —

A. You asked me —

Q. — frankly where he went and how far he went.

A. — what the conversation was, I believe.

Q. How far did he go?

A. Okay. He went approximately ten feet.

Q. And that was over a minute and half period?

A. That we were standing there, yes.

Q. Did you walk with him to stay with him —

A. Yes.

Q. — during that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it appear that he was trying to get away from you?

A. No.

Q. He was just — just moving deeper into the area?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you ever actually tell him this is a secure area?

A. Yes.

Q. You used those words?

A. Yes.

Q. Not once, but I think you said four times?

A. I didn’t stop and count them, but I — we — during the {p.48} conversation, I continuously told him that he was going to be arrested if he didn’t leave the secured area.

Q. Did you tell him this was a secure area?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you told him four times?

A. Many times.

Q. Many times?

A. Many times.

Q. Did you continue to tell him right up until the end of the two minutes —

A. Yes, I did.

Q. — when he was arrested?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. Did he ever ask you why he couldn’t stay there?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And what did you tell him?

A. I told him it was a secured area, and it was a presidential route, and he could not be there.

Q. You told him it was a presidential route?

A. I told him that this was the presidential route. The Secret Service would not allow anyone to be in that area.

Q. Isn’t it true that you told him he had to leave because you were the police and you could decide who could be on that campus and where?

A. No, sir. {p.49}

Q. You never said that?

A. No.

Q. Did he ask you why he was being arrested? Did he ever ask you why?

A. I — I don’t recall that.

Q. You don’t — you don’t remember those words?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever tell him that he was being arrested because he didn’t follow your orders?

A. I may have said that, yes.

Q. What did you do after he was arrested?

A. I went back over and continued working with the people that were going through the metal detectors.

Q. And what happened to these people that were over here (indicating) in this grassy area?

A. I had other officers escort them back up to the demonstration area, which they all complied with and went.

Q. You never went back and talked to these people?

A. Again? No.

Q. Never?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever tell them that they had to move back by Stadium — or point back here (indicating) and say, “You’ve got to go back by Stadium”? {p.50}

A. I don’t recall.

Q. And then eventually you decided they had to go back behind the building?

A. I knew that right from the beginning. I didn’t decide that.

Q. And did you tell Antoine that the reason he couldn’t stay here is because he couldn’t stay with the general public, but had to go to a protest area?

A. Right. All protesters had to be in the protest area.

Q. And you got that from the Secret Service?

A. Yes.

Q. Directly from them?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever check with anybody at the university to ask them if — if that was legal?

Ms. Buckles. Objection, your Honor. This is a police officer, not a. legal — a lawyer.

Mr. Ford. I’m just asking if anybody else made a decision.

The Court. That’s irrelevant. The objection is sustained.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. Did — did you talk with anybody other than the Secret Service to decide that you were going to make members of the public move behind the building? {p.51}

A. No.

Q. That was just your decision?

A. That was the Secret Service’s decision.

Q. They’re the ones that told you, and you’re the one that decided you would enforce it and arrest anybody who didn’t go there?

A. That’s correct.

The Court. Did you make that decision on your own, Officer Carpenter, or was that —

The Witness. Pardon me?

The Court. — the decision of Western? Did you make that decision on your own, or was that the decision of Western Michigan University?

The Witness. The decision that I made to arrest the defendant was on my own.

The Court. No. The decision — the decision on where the secured area was.

The Witness. That was the decision of the Secret Service.

The Court. Was it — were you working independently with the Secret Service, or was that through Western, through your responsibilities at Western — with Western Michigan University?

The Witness. I was working as a deputy, as I’m deputized to enforce the rules and the laws, and the {p.52} rules had been established that no one could go into that area at that time, and I was enforcing that as an agent of Western Michigan University.

The Court. Thank you.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. You said in your police report that you decided to arrest Antoine because you thought that the delay was simply escalating an already deteriorating situation. Do you remember writing that?

A. Yes.

Q. What was deteriorating about the situation?

A. Any time you have a crowd or a group of people or demonstrators, when you get one person acting on his own, he incites other people, and it could have incited those other people to become — to violence. In police training, you try and deescalate that type of situation as soon as you can by arresting the perpetrator and immediately removing him from the area.

Q. When you talked about a deteriorating situation, did you have any difficulty with any members of this — this group that was threatening in any way, or were they getting more rowdy or louder or moving in other areas? Were they giving you a hard time?

A. Not at that point, no.

Q. So there was — there was nothing deteriorating about the {p.53} situation except Antoine was still there and you didn’t want him there?

A. That’s not true.

Q. Okay. What was deteriorating about the situation?

A. I wanted everyone to move to the demonstration area, but I was going to do it one step at a time. First, I got them out of the secured area, back behind the rope, and then I had to bring other police officers in to physically escort them back up to the demonstration area. It was a two-step process. I couldn’t do it all at once.

Q. And anybody who just wanted to stay here and watch would have been welcome to do it?

A. Yes.

Q. How far is it from Oliver Street back behind the student recreation center?

A. Oh, it’s the length of that building right there (indicating), and I don’t know how long that is.

The Court. Perhaps you can relate to the size of the courtroom. Is it longer than the courtroom?

The Witness. Yes. Maybe twice as long as the courtroom.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. This courtroom is maybe 50 feet?

A. It’s farther than that.

Q. In fact, it’s probably several hundred yards, isn’t it, {p.54} from here (indicating) back to this area where they were allowed behind the building?

A. No. It’s not hundreds of yards.

Q. Is it 100 yards?

A. Possibly 300 feet, 100 yards, yeah.

Q. Did you stay here (indicating) until President Bush left?

A. Where?

Q. Were you — were you outside this building (indicating) until after President Bush left?

A. Yes.

Q. So you were there for several hours?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you maintain this as a secure area the entire time?

A. Yes.

The Court. Do you need some water, Officer? Do you need water?

The Witness. I’ll take a little bit.

The Court. Perhaps we can get Officer Carpenter some water.

The Witness. Thank you.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. What was he arrested for?

A. He was arrested for trespassing and disorderly conduct.

Q. Actually, you just arrested him for disorderly conduct, {p.55} didn’t you, then later decided you had a trespassing?

A. I said that I arrested him for —

Ms. Buckles. Objection, your Honor. The charging decision is the prosecutor’s decision, not the police officer.

The Court. How is that relevant?

Mr. Ford. Well, I want to know what he was arrested for.

The Court. I know you want to know that. How is it relevant?

Mr. Ford. I think it’s relevant to what was going on at the time.

The Court. The objection is sustained.

Ms. Buckles. Thank you, your Honor.

By Mr. Ford:

Q. Did you — did you arrest him?

A. No.

Q. Who arrested him?

A. Mike Smith. I had Mike Smith take him into custody.

Q. Did you — did you tell Mr. —

A. I told Mr. Smith that he was — I guess — yes. If you’re talking about verbally saying you’re under arrest or physically arresting him — I verbally said he was to be arrested. He was physically taken into custody by another person. {p.56}

Q. Did you tell him what the charge was when you arrested him?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was?

A. Disorderly conduct and trespassing.

Q. And you used those words?

A. Yes. We — we always. — after we tell people on campus — there’s a campus trespass law, and, once we have told them they have to leave an area, if they don’t, then they are charged with trespassing.

Q. You told him —

A. That he was —

Q. — you’re under arrest for disorderly conduct and trespassing?

A. Yes.

Q. That’s all I have for you.

The Court. Thank you. Anything further, Miss Buckles?

Redirect Examination

By Ms. Buckles:

Q. This is Western Michigan (indicating), this map is? This is a map of Western Michigan (indicating)?

A. It appears to be, yes.

Q. Okay. Western Michigan is in Kalamazoo?

A. Yes. {p.57}

Q. And that’s Kalamazoo County, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. This right here (indicating) is Western’s property, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. This right here (indicating) is Western Michigan’s property, right?

A. Yes.

Q. This right here (indicating) is Western Michigan’s property, right?

A. Yes.

Q. This whole area here (indicating), is Western Michigan’s property?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have by — authority by Western Michigan to regulate Western Michigan’s property?

A. That’s correct,

Q. Western Michigan adopted the Secret Service policy of having this (indicating) as an established demonstration area?

A. Yes.

Q. And Western Michigan gave you the authority to enforce that as an established demonstration area?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, like you said, you’re an officer and that’s your job {p.58} and you’ve been trained as a police officer, as a captain, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And, being on Western Michigan, you hear different loud noises and whatnot?

A. Yes.

Q. But you did indicate that there were certain people who were drawn to the attention of — by the actions of the defendant, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Therefore, whether he’s loud or boisterous, he was making a disturbance?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said over here where — these people, they could be here (indicating), but they cannot have signs, right?

A. Right.

Q. If they have signs that say “We love you, Bush. Long live Bush” with a stick, would they be in trouble?

A. Yes.

Q. If they had signs, “We love your foreign policy, Bush,” would they be in trouble?

A. Yes.

Q. So no matter what the sign said, they would have been requested to go to the established demonstration area?

A. Everyone carrying a sign, pro — it didn’t matter what it {p.59} was. They had to go to the demonstration area.

Q. So it wasn’t the content of the sign?

A. No.

Q. It was the nature of the stick and other —

A. Yes.

Q. — and just being in that area?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the people in the yellow rope, you weren’t concerned about them. Why weren’t you concerned? You said you weren’t concerned about these people in the yellow rope?

A. The people who were not carrying any signs or demonstrating we were not concerned about.

Q. Okay. And, again, why was that?

A. They had no means — they had no apparent means of threatening or violence or throwing anything at the car or harming anyone.

Q. And this place where the defendant was at, that’s Western Michigan’s property, right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And you asked him, continuously you said on cross- examination, to move from this area (indicating)?

A. I ordered him to move, yes.

Q. And there were approximately 800 people who were going to be in the student recreation center?

A. Yes. {p.60}


Q. And this is a street or an area, a public area, on Western Michigan’s campus?

A. (No verbal response)

Q. If it had not been — this is considered a street —

A. Yes.

Q. — on Western Michigan? Thank you. No further questions.

The Court. Mr. Ford, recross?

Mr. Ford. Just a couple.



By Mr. Ford:

Q. Who owns Western Michigan University?

A. The State of Michigan.

Q. So this is state-owned land?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is all public-owned property?

A. It is owned by the State of Michigan.

Q. And this is a street?

A. Yes.

Q. Public street?

A. Yes.

Q. I had another question, and I’ve forgotten it. Give me just a second. Maybe it wasn’t too important. I hope it wasn’t important because I forget it. That’s all I have at this time.

The Court. Okay. Thank you very much. {p.61} Thank you, Officer Carpenter. You may step down.

The Witness. Thank you.

(At 2:40 p.m., witness excused)

The Court. And we are — let’s take a very brief recess at this time. We’ll have the jury go back up to the jury room. We’ll call you back down when we’re ready to proceed. You’ve heard some of the testimony. You’ve not heard all of the testimony. Don’t start deliberating. Don’t start to make a decision. Probably don’t even think about it while you’re up there. Listen to the whole testimony before you decide. Thank you.

(At 2:40 p.m., jury leaves courtroom)

The Court. I think — actually, I think you may know my husband.

The Defendant. Yes.

The Court. Do you know Al Heilman?

The Defendant. Yes.

The Court. And I’ve met you at a — some sort of function at Western’s campus. I don’t think that makes any difference. I just —

The Defendant. We’ve met before.

The Court. Yeah. Right. I just wanted to put that on the record. If either party has any objection to that, that’s fine.

{Balance omitted, pp.62-87}




{Reporter Certificate}


State of Michigan)
County of Kalamazoo)

I certify that this transcript, Volume I, consisting of 88 pages, is a complete, true and accurate transcript, to the best of my ability, of the excerpt of proceedings taken in this case by Judy A. Palmer, CEO 6735, on August 17, 2001.

September 21, 2001

Signature: Denise Bowers


Denise Bowers, CER 4106
8th District Court–Central
416 S. Rose Street
Kalamazoo, MI 49007

8th District Court – Kalamazoo County


Source: Photocopy of a duplicate original, scanned to pdf.

By CJHjr: Converted to text (OCR: FineReader 6.0), formatted (xhtml/css), links, text {in braces}, highlighting.

This case: Michigan v. Antoine Jennings (8th District Court for Kalamazoo County Michigan, No. 01-05340 SM, August 17? 2001), affirmed May 8 2002 (Circuit Court for Kalamazoo County Michigan, No. A01-1390AR), cert. denied Oct. 6 2003 (U.S., No. 02-1742) (a college student convicted of trespass and fined $100 plus costs for refusing to obey a police order of Secret Service origin to go to a distant out-of-sight protest zone, during a visit by President Bush on March 22 2001 to Western Michigan University campus, or else put down his sign objecting to the President’s election: “Welcome to Western, Governor Bush”). Commentary: James Kilpatrick “Free Speech for Fans Only” (The Southern Illinoisan, June 18 2003) (quoting the trial transcript) (copy).

Cited in United States v. Brett A. Bursey (D.S.C., No. 3:03cr309 {175kb.html}, criminal information filed March 7 2003, jury trial denied June 4 2003, bench trial Nov. 12-13 2003, verdict Jan. 6 2004: guilty, $500 fine (Bristow Marchant, U.S. Magistrate Judge), district appeal docketed Jan. 13 2004, affirmed Sept. 14 2004 (Cameron McGowan Currie, U.S. District Judge), circuit appeal docketed Oct. 7 2004, affirmed July 25 2005 {64kb.pdf, 64kb.pdf}, rehearing denied Sept. 8 2005 (4th Cir., No. 04-4832), petition for certiorari docketed Dec. 14 2005, certiorari denied Jan. 17 2006 (U.S., No. 05-767).

Cited in ACORN v. City of Philadelphia (E.D. Pa., 03-CV-4312 {50 kb}, filed July 24 2003). See ACLU Fact Sheet, “Free Speech Under Fire: The ACLU Challenge to ‘Protest Zones’” (ACLU, Sept. 23 2003).

See alsoOther Secret Service protest zone cases” on the Bursey docket-sheet page. Brett Bursey

This document is not copyrighted and may be freely copied.


Charles Judson Harwood Jr.

Posted Jan. 7 2004. Updated May 16 2009.


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