paypal useless

In my opinion, PayPal is arrogantly stupid.

This contains all of the posts from AEU on this subject, and my private exchanges with their automatic machines and possibly a human (but I would not bank on that) up to 03.30 am 27 May 2003, including all of the auto-generated crap from PayPal, and one from them later in the same day, trying to put the blame on my 'bank', when my bank is not even involved in my credit card transactions.

You will see the first half of the file shows me trying time and time again to contact PayPal to show them via copies of my credit statement that my CC account is real, it is good for over £11,000 of credit - you will see statements from my CC company - and that a few DVD purchases are peanuts. You will see that either my e-mails were answered by automatic mechanisms or they completely ignored what I had sent them and tried to put the blame on me or my bank.

My posts to them, and comments on their 'replies', are in red. Their bizarre and insane comments to me, which totally ignore whatever I sent to them, are in blue. My letter to my credit card company, telling MBNA exactly what I thought of PayPal, is in green. Richard R. Hershberger's key post stating that some 16,000 people have the same opinion, is in pink.

There is a lot of repetition, for this is a direct copy of the appropriate e-mails and posts to AEU. I have only removed my address and phone number.

They change from giving me unlimited credit to not recognising the same credit card within days!!!!!

This is long, PayPal are now in my killfile, and this topic is closed, except in AEU and AUE.

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: PayPal Email Confirmation
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:07:47 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

Congratulations! You've just signed up for a PayPal account.
Your new PayPal account makes sending online payments fast,
easy, and secure. With over 20 million members, it's
the best way to:

- Buy from an online auction
- Pay on a merchant website
- Send money to anyone with an email address

To make sure you can use your PayPal account the next time
you make a purchase, all you need to do is confirm your
email address today.

To confirm that this is your email address, just
click on the following link and enter your password:
https://www.paypal.com/ece/cn=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx&em=docrobin%40ntlworld.com

If your email program has problems with hypertext links,
you may also confirm your email address by logging into
your PayPal account. Click on the "Confirm email" link
and then enter the following confirmation number:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

If you need help, please contact customer service at:
https://www.paypal.com/ewf/f=act_email

After your email address is confirmed, the uses for your
PayPal account are limitless. To get started, look for
auctions on eBay or browse the thousands of merchant
websites that accept PayPal payments.
Thanks for using PayPal!

Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address cannot be
answered. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account and choose the
" Help" link in the footer of any page.
----------------------------------------------------------------
PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD

NEVER give your password to anyone and ONLY log in at
https://www.paypal.com/. Protect yourself against fraudulent
websites by checking the URL/Address bar every time you log in.
----------------------------------------------------------------

--------
Attachment
7.9 kBytes
--------

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: Enter Your Member Number
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:07:51 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

This is a reminder that we need you to enter your Member Number.

The credit card to which we sent the Member Number was added to
your PayPal account on 09 May 2003, and ends in 0009.

Until you enter your Member Number, you may be limited in the amount of
money you are able to send. To find out how much you can send before entering
your Member Number:

1. Log in to your PayPal account

2. Click the View Limits link next to the yellow Balance box
(if there is not a View Limits link, your account has no Sending Limit)

3. Your sending limit will appear beneath the 'Sending Limit' heading

How to enter your Member Number
PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to your credit card. You can
obtain and enter your Member Number by following the steps below:

1. In the item description section of your next credit card
statement, your 4-digit Member Number will be printed next
to the $1.95 PayPal Membership Fee. Check your next
statement to find your unique Member Number.

2. Click the link below and type in your unique Member Number:

https://www.paypal.com/MEM-NUMBER

If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to 4
business days for your Member Number to appear. If you don't have
online access to your credit card statement, please wait for your
printed statement to arrive in the mail.*

You will be able to use this funding source after you have successfully
entered your Member Number.

Remember, completing your membership is one of the requirements for
receiving your $5 New Account bonus.

Sincerely,
PayPal Credit Card Services

* PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card
companies in order to obtain their PayPal Member Number before
receiving their monthly statements in the mail. If PayPal receives
a complaint from Visa, MasterCard, or your card issuer regarding your
account, your PayPal account may be permanently closed.

----------------------------------------------------------------
PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: Enter Your Member Number
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:24:25 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

This is a reminder that we need you to enter your Member Number.

The credit card to which we sent the Member Number was added to
your PayPal account on 13 May 2003, and ends in 0009.

Until you enter your Member Number, you may be limited in the amount of
money you are able to send. To find out how much you can send before entering
your Member Number:

1. Log in to your PayPal account

2. Click the View Limits link next to the yellow Balance box
(if there is not a View Limits link, your account has no Sending Limit)

3. Your sending limit will appear beneath the 'Sending Limit' heading

How to enter your Member Number
PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to your credit card. You can
obtain and enter your Member Number by following the steps below:

2. Click the link below and type in your unique Member Number:

https://www.paypal.com/MEM-NUMBER

You will be able to use this funding source after you have successfully
entered your Member Number.

Remember, completing your membership is one of the requirements for
receiving your $5 New Account bonus.

Sincerely,
PayPal Credit Card Services

----------------------------------------------------------------
PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: Forgotten Password
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:57:17 -0700
--------

Dear robin Bignall,

This email was sent automatically by the PayPal server in response
to your request to recover your password. This is done for your
protection --- only you, the recipient of this email can take the next
step in the password recovery process.

To reset your password and access your account, follow these steps:

1. Click on the link below. If nothing happens when you click on the
link (or if you use AOL), copy and paste the link into the address bar of
your web browser.

https://www.paypal.com/fq/ac=AwdN0wAWxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxYYTwhURrF9FdUpIcd4buZ.0twLaJMJDX8KIl2bEYX5-sIK44TAYIzAg&t=pr

The link will take you to our Verify Your Identity page.

2. On the Verify Your Identity page, answer ONE of the questions, and
click Submit.

3. Fill in the appropriate fields to reset your password and Security Questions,
and click Submit. You will then be able to access your account.

If you did not request that we send this Forgotten Password email to you,
please report this email to us at:

https://www.paypal.com/ewf/f=sa_pass

Thanks for using PayPal!

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: PayPal Password Change
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:03:58 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

The password for robin Bignall's PayPal account was changed
on May 12, 2003.

If you did not authorize this change, please contact us
immediately using the link below:

https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=ap_default

Thanks for using PayPal!

Note: When you log in to your PayPal account, be sure that the
website's URL always begins with "https://www.paypal.com/".
The "s" in "https" at the beginning of the URL means you are
logging into a secure page. If the URL does not begin with
https, you are not on a PayPal page.

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: PayPal Security Question and Answer Change
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:03:58 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

The security questions and answers for robin Bignall's PayPal
account were changed on May 12, 2003.

If you did not authorize this change, please contact us
immediately at 1-888-221-1161.

Thanks for using PayPal!

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: Receipt for your Payment
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:23:05 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

This email confirms that you sent 12.00 Pounds Sterling to phil@homeinredland.freeserve.co.uk.

------------------------------
Payment Details
------------------------------

Amount: 12.00 Pounds Sterling
Transaction ID:xxxxxxxx5S50583012
Subject: dr strangelove
View the details of this transaction online at:
https://www.paypal.com/vst/id=xxxxxxxxS50583012

Thank you for using PayPal!
The PayPal Team

Your monthly account statement is available anytime; just log
in to your account at https://www.paypal.com/HISTORY.
To correct any errors, please contact us through our Help Center
at https://www.paypal.com/HELP.

Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address cannot be
answered. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account and choose the
" Help" link in the footer of any page.

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: Receipt for your Payment
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:07:34 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

This email confirms that you have paid philsalesuk 8.89 Pounds Sterling
using PayPal.
This credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PayPal Europe LTD".

------------------------------
Payment Details:
------------------------------

Total Amount: 8.89 Pounds Sterling
Currency: Pounds Sterling
Transaction ID: xxxxxx63VT313841K
Total Shipping: 1.90 Pounds Sterling
Insurance: 0.00 Pounds Sterling
Quantity: 1
Item Title: MARLON BRANDO KARL MALDEN ONE EYE JACKS *New
Item Number: xxxxxx5054
Buyer: robin Bignall
Buyer's User ID: docrobinb

------------------------------
Business Information:
------------------------------

Business: philsalesuk

------------------------------
Your UNCONFIRMED Address
------------------------------

robin Bignall
xx xxxxxxx xxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you,
The PayPal Team

----------------------------------------------------------------
Are you Verified?

When you verify your PayPal account by registering and
confirming a checking account, you increase the security
of our payments network. This allows us to remove your
PayPal sending limit, plus you'll be eligible to:

* Withdraw money from your account with the PayPal Debit Card.
* Earn a high rate of return through our money market fund.
* Have a chance to win our $1,000 Sweepstakes.

Plus, being Verified improves your PayPal reputation.
For more information, go to:

https://www.paypal.com/VERIFY

----------------------------------------------------------------
Your monthly account statement is available anytime; just log
in to your account at https://www.paypal.com/HISTORY.
To correct any errors, please contact us through our Help Center
at https://www.paypal.com/HELP.

Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address cannot be
answered. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account and choose the
" Help" link in the footer of any page.

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: Receipt for your Payment
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:10:13 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

This email confirms that you have paid petelethbridge 5.99 Pounds Sterling
using PayPal.
This credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PayPal Europe LTD".

------------------------------
Payment Details:
------------------------------

Total Amount: 5.99 Pounds Sterling
Currency: Pounds Sterling
Transaction ID: xxxxxx60VS8548937
Total Shipping: 1.00 Pound Sterling
Insurance: 0.00 Pounds Sterling
Quantity: 1
Item Title: The Russia House - Connery/Pfeiffer DVD Film
Item Number: xxxxxx0559
Buyer: robin Bignall
Buyer's User ID: docrobinb

------------------------------
Business Information:
------------------------------

Business: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------
Your UNCONFIRMED Address
------------------------------

robin Bignall
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you,
The PayPal Team

----------------------------------------------------------------
Are you Verified?

* Withdraw money from your account with the PayPal Debit Card.
* Earn a high rate of return through our money market fund.
* Have a chance to win our $1,000 Sweepstakes.

Plus, being Verified improves your PayPal reputation.
For more information, go to:

https://www.paypal.com/VERIFY

Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address cannot be
answered. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account and choose the
" Help" link in the footer of any page.

========
To: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
Subject: AutoResponse - Email Returned SAXK (KMM29975539xxxxxxxxKM)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 04:33:59 -0700
--------
Dear Dr Robin Bignall,

Thank you for contacting PayPal Customer Service.

In an effort to assist you as quickly and efficiently as possible, please
direct all customer service inquires through our website. Click on the
hyperlink below to go to the PayPal website. After entering your email
address and password into the Member Log In box, you can submit your
inquiry via our Customer Service Contact form. If you indicate the type of
question you have with as much detail as you can, we will be able to
provide you with the best customer service possible.

If your email program is unable to open hyperlinks, please copy and paste
this URL into the address bar of your browser.

https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=default

If you are contacting PayPal because you are unable to log into your
account, please use the contact form below.

https://www.paypal.com/ewf/f=default

Thank you for choosing PayPal!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: When you click on links in this email, you will be asked to log into
your PayPal Account. As always, make sure that you are logging into a
secure PayPal page by looking for 'https://www.paypal.com/' at the
beginning of the URL.

Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address will not be
answered.

********************************************
Original Email: FROM RB
You should have received an e-mail from me about this. Your $1.75 has
appeared on my online CC statement, I have entered the 4 digit number into
the verification box, only to be told that it is an "old" number. It is the
only number you have sent me. Please sort this out.
--
regards,
Robin
Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus
On Tue, 13 May 2003 02:24:25 -0700, you wrote:
> Dear robin Bignall,
>
> This is a reminder that we need you to enter your Member Number.
>
> The credit card to which we sent the Member Number was added to
> your PayPal account on 13 May 2003, and ends in 0009.
>
> Until you enter your Member Number, you may be limited in the amount of
> money you are able to send. To find out how much you can send before
entering
> your Member Number:
>
> 1. Log in to your PayPal account
>
> 2. Click the View Limits link next to the yellow Balance box
> (if there is not a View Limits link, your account has no Sending Limit)
>
> 3. Your sending limit will appear beneath the 'Sending Limit' heading
>
> How to enter your Member Number
> PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to your credit card. You can
> obtain and enter your Member Number by following the steps below:
>
> 1. In the item description section of your next credit card
> statement, your 4-digit Member Number will be printed next
> to the $1.95 PayPal Membership Fee. Check your next
> statement to find your unique Member Number.
>
> 2. Click the link below and type in your unique Member Number:
>
> https://www.paypal.com/MEM-NUMBER
>
> If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to 4
> business days for your Member Number to appear. If you don't have
> online access to your credit card statement, please wait for your
> printed statement to arrive in the mail.*
>
> You will be able to use this funding source after you have successfully
> entered your Member Number.
>
> Remember, completing your membership is one of the requirements for
> receiving your $5 New Account bonus.
>
> Sincerely,
> PayPal Credit Card Services
>
>
> * PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card
> companies in order to obtain their PayPal Member Number before
> receiving their monthly statements in the mail. If PayPal receives
> a complaint from Visa, MasterCard, or your card issuer regarding your
> account, your PayPal account may be permanently closed.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD
>
> NEVER give your password to anyone and ONLY log in at
> https://www.paypal.com/. Protect yourself against fraudulent
> websites by checking the URL/Address bar every time you log in.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>

========
To: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM300004xxxxxx08L0KM)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:56:40 -0700
--------
Dear Dr Robin Bignall,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

For assistance with successfully completing the Membership Process,
please fax the required documents to 1-402-537-5750:

1. A cover page stating: Attention-Global Account Membership
Process. On the cover page, include your name and the email address
registered to your account so we can identify the account

[*** Bullshit - RB]

2. A copy of a government issued photo identification listing your
name

[*** More bullshit - RB]

3. A copy of the credit/debit card statement that shows at least the
last 4-digits of the card

4. A copy of the front and back of the credit card

It may take up to 10 business days to review the information that you
have provided. We will contact you after we have reviewed your
documentation.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

[*** I had less trouble than this emigrating to France on 1/1/1973!]

Sincerely,
Sally
PayPal Global Services

Original Message Follows:
------------------------

Form Message
customer subject: RB to PayPal: getting verified
customer message: Message: 'Each time I try to do this it has asked me for
a number which has not yet appeared on my ONLINE credit card ststement.
This morning, your first statement appeared, but when I tried to verify it
said that number was old. It is therefore always waiting for something I
have yet to see, and I am a bit sick of this game because I have wasted
hours trying to pay for a DVD, and the vendor may well let it go to someone
else. The only transaction number on my CC statement, for your fee, is
xxxx. To be told that the only one is an old one suggests to me that you
are about to charge me twice. Please get it sorted.'

========
To: "webform@paypal.com" <webform@paypal.com>
Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM300xxxxxx73708L0KM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:01:22 +0100
--------

****************************************************************************************************************
PayPal,
I am severely disabled and live alone. It will take me a great deal of time
and effort, which I do not know if I can manage alone, to do these things.
Your requirement for documents reminds me very much of the French
bureaucracy. I have been disabled for a long time, and have had to buy
everything via the internet, from $5 software to a £1000 flat screen, and
this is the first time I've had problems. All this for a few DVDs costing
peanuts.

Apart from that I do not have a fax machine and live in Europe, have not
worked for more than 10 years and cannot afford transAtlantic phone calls.
The only deduction for $1.75 from you that appears on my credit card
statement has xxxx against it as your 4-digit code. If your system will not
accept that then too bad for your system.

I am going to contact my credit card company right now to cancel that
payment, to leave the £12 in place for the DVD I have already bought, and
instruct them to accept no more transactions from PayPal. I am also going
to copy this statement I am writing now to Ebay, and to all of my
correspondents world-wide. Your system is mickey-mouse beyond belief.

***************************************************************************************************************************

regards,

Robin Bignall

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus

On Tue, 13 May 2003 17:56:40 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Dr Robin Bignall,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
> For assistance with successfully completing the Membership Process,
> please fax the required documents to 1-402-537-5750:
>
> 1. A cover page stating: Attention-Global Account Membership
> Process. On the cover page, include your name and the email address
> registered to your account so we can identify the account
>
> 2. A copy of a government issued photo identification listing your
> name
>
> 3. A copy of the credit/debit card statement that shows at least the
> last 4-digits of the card
>
> 4. A copy of the front and back of the credit card
>
> It may take up to 10 business days to review the information that you
> have provided. We will contact you after we have reviewed your
> documentation.

[*** RB comment: This is just insane! Just look at what they want. Would any sane person send that to anyone?]
>
> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
> again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sally
> PayPal Global Services
>
> Original Message Follows:
> ------------------------
> Form Message

[*** RB to PayPal]

> customer subject: getting verified
> customer message: Message: 'Each time I try to do this it has asked me for
> a number which has not yet appeared on my ONLINE credit card ststement.
> This morning, your first statement appeared, but when I tried to verify it
> said that number was old. It is therefore always waiting for something I
> have yet to see, and I am a bit sick of this game because I have wasted
> hours trying to pay for a DVD, and the vendor may well let it go to someone
> else. The only transaction number on my CC statement, for your fee, is
> 6933. To be told that the only one is an old one suggests to me that you
> are about to charge me twice. Please get it sorted.'
>
>

[*** Never addresses the problem]
>
>

========
To: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM30012593V4001L0KM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:26:54 -0700
--------
Dear Dr Robin Bignall,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

We're sorry to hear you're thinking about closing your PayPal Account.
We value you as a customer, and we ask that you carefully consider your
decision. If you think there is a chance you may want to use our
service in the future, it is not necessary to close your account.
You're welcome to use your account as much or as little as you wish.

To close your PayPal Account:

Click https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=ap_close or copy and paste the entire
link into the address bar, and follow the instructions.

Note: Any pending money requests will automatically be canceled once
the account is closed.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,
Beth
PayPal Finance Department

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
PayPal,
I am severely disabled and live alone. It will take me a great deal of time
and effort, which I do not know if I can manage alone, to do these things.
Your requirement for documents reminds me very much of the French
bureaucracy. I have been disabled for a long time, and have had to buy
everything via the internet, from $5 software to a £1000 flat screen, and
this is the first time I've had problems. All this for a few DVDs costing
peanuts.
Apart from that I do not have a fax machine and live in Europe, have not
worked for more than 10 years and cannot afford transAtlantic phone calls.
The only deduction for $1.75 from you that appears on my credit card
statement has 6933 against it as your 4-digit code. If your system will not
accept that then too bad for your system.
I am going to contact my credit card company right now to cancel that
payment, to leave the £12 in place for the DVD I have already bought, and
instruct them to accept no more transactions from PayPal. I am also going
to copy this statement I am writing now to Ebay, and to all of my
correspondents world-wide. Your system is mickey-mouse beyond belief.
--
regards,
Robin Bignall
Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus
On Tue, 13 May 2003 17:56:40 -0700, you wrote:
> Dear Dr Robin Bignall,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
> For assistance with successfully completing the Membership Process,
> please fax the required documents to 1-402-537-5750:
>
> 1. A cover page stating: Attention-Global Account Membership
> Process. On the cover page, include your name and the email address
> registered to your account so we can identify the account
>
> 2. A copy of a government issued photo identification listing your
> name
>
> 3. A copy of the credit/debit card statement that shows at least the
> last 4-digits of the card
>
> 4. A copy of the front and back of the credit card
>
> It may take up to 10 business days to review the information that you
> have provided. We will contact you after we have reviewed your
> documentation.
>
> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
> again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sally
> PayPal Global Services
>
> Original Message Follows:
> ------------------------
> Form Message

[*** RB to Paypal]

> customer subject: getting verified
> customer message: Message: 'Each time I try to do this it has asked me for

>a number which has not yet appeared on my ONLINE credit card ststement.
> This morning, your first statement appeared, but when I tried to verify it

>said that number was old. It is therefore always waiting for something I
> have yet to see, and I am a bit sick of this game because I have wasted
> hours trying to pay for a DVD, and the vendor may well let it go to
someone
> else. The only transaction number on my CC statement, for your fee, is
> xxxx. To be told that the only one is an old one suggests to me that you
> are about to charge me twice. Please get it sorted.'
>
>
>
>

[***RB to PayPal again and again....]

========
To: "webform@paypal.com" <webform@paypal.com>
Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM30012593V4001L0KM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:50:58 +0100
--------
PayPal,
I have spoken to my credit card company, MBNA, this morning. I have been a
customer of theirs and had a gold credit card for at least a decade. They
attempted to call you and put me through to you while they listened in, but
it was too early to get a response from the phone number they had for you.
They have asked me to try again at 6 pm my time, but since you are
responding to e-mails that may not be necessary.

Understand that I signed up with PayPal just so that I could use Ebay to
purchase tiny items such as DVDs and minor software from people too small
to have any other mechanism for the receipt of payments. The two payments I
have already made are £25 for SpyBot software, a voluntary donation, and
£ 12 for a DVD.

MBNA know the PayPal scheme perfectly, and I did not have to explain to
them any of its intricacies. Both MBNA and I can verify that the 4-digit
number next to your $1.75 membership fee (which translates to £1.50 in UKP)
on my statement is xxxx. Your automated system thinks this is an old
number, for some reason, but it is the only number on the statement, and
your system must therefore be at fault. I wrote my first program in 1965
during my PhD, and worked for IBM for 25 years, so I know a little about
systems.

Apart from not having a fax, and not being able to leave home, some of the
things you are asking for are ridiculous. A copy of an official government
document with my name and photo, for example. I had to do that with my
passport when I went to work in France the day the UK joined the Common
Market. I lived there for 15 years and never had to do it again.

I will attach a copy of my latest credit card statement below, but I will
not fax a copy of the front and rear of my credit card (even if I had a
fax) to you or anybody else, for any reason whatsoever.

Your whole approach is to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Please do one of two things.

After reading my statement, as below, either verify my account and let us
have no more of this nonsense, or refund my $1.75 and we will call it a
day.

The following is a simple screen copy of the MBNA screen. It does not show
my credit card number for reasons which should be obvious. You will have to
take my word for it that the card, which starts with 5441 and ends 0009 is
the one referred to. I have no other. Your transaction with the disputed
6933 number if highlighted by a series of >>>>>>>> in its left hand column.

******************** Credit card statement ***********************

Registered Accounts Edit E-mail Address Change Password Add or
Remove Account Contact Help Log Off

Snapshot

Statements

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Account Snapshot

MasterCard Gold
Acct# ending 350002
DR R BIGNALL
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Change Address

Available for Cash or Purchases
£ 11,719.80

Transfer Balances

Balance Information
Current Credit Limit

Request Increase

£13,800.00
Current Outstanding Balance £2,020.20
Current Unposted Transactions (rounded) £60.00
Current Disputed Amount £0.00

Total Minimum Payment Due
£ 0.00
Payment Information
Last Payment Date

Protect Your Payments

13/05/2003
Last Payment Amount £2,223.17
Overdue Amount £0.00
Current Payment Amount £0.00

You could SAVE by transferring a balance today at 1.9% per annum until 1
October 2003!
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Transactions appearing below will be included in your next statement.

Transaction
Date
Posting
Date
MCC
Description Amount (£)

13/04/2003 15/04/2003 5734 PC WORLD ONLINE HEMEL HEMPSTEGB
£ 162.54
14/04/2003 16/04/2003 7278 TED TA COOPERS BISHOP STORTFGB £17.98
16/04/2003 17/04/2003 7629 CONNECT DISTRIBUTIONBIRMINGHAM GB
£ 20.94
16/04/2003 17/04/2003 5200 FOCUS DIY & GARDENINHERTFORD GB £46.97
16/04/2003 17/04/2003 5200 FOCUS DIY & GARDENINHERTFORD GB £56.17
17/04/2003 23/04/2003 5542 SAINSBURYS-PFS HODDESDON 101GB £41.86
18/04/2003 23/04/2003 5734 DABS FINANCIAL SERVIBOLTON GB £186.82
22/04/2003 24/04/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £19.46
22/04/2003 24/04/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £44.25
23/04/2003 24/04/2003 5722 DIRECT(WHOLESALE)S WORTHING GB £32.94
23/04/2003 24/04/2003 5734 DABS FINANCIAL SERVIBOLTON GB £186.82
24/04/2003 25/04/2003 4814 O2UK PREPAY SLOUGH GB £30.00
24/04/2003 25/04/2003 5969 AMAZON.CO.UK 0208-636-9451GB £75.88
25/04/2003 28/04/2003 5969 AMAZON.CO.UK 0208-636-9451GB £67.58
26/04/2003 28/04/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £19.74
26/04/2003 28/04/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £61.24
28/04/2003 30/04/2003 7278 TED TA COOPERS BISHOP STORTFGB £17.98
29/04/2003 30/04/2003 5732 RICKMORES VAC CENTREHODDESDON GB
£ 12.99
29/04/2003 30/04/2003 5211 SCREWFIX DIRECT YEOVIL GB £40.94
30/04/2003 02/05/2003 5734 DABS FINANCIAL SERVIBOLTON GB £186.82
CR
01/05/2003 02/05/2003 5200 FOCUS DIY & GARDENINHERTFORD GB £24.42
01/05/2003 02/05/2003 5941 B/POOL A R CO LD BLACKPOOL GB £639.60
01/05/2003 06/05/2003 5542 SAINSBURYS-PFS HODDESDON 101GB £34.12
02/05/2003 06/05/2003 5942 STATIONERY OFFICE BOLONDON SW8 GB
£ 7.49
03/05/2003 06/05/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £28.64
03/05/2003 06/05/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £44.25
04/05/2003 06/05/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £15.44
06/05/2003 07/05/2003 5941 B/POOL A R CO LD BLACKPOOL GB £38.55
06/05/2003 07/05/2003 5200 FOCUS DIY & GARDENINHERTFORD GB £39.20
07/05/2003 09/05/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £29.18
>>>>>>>>>> 09/05/2003 12/05/2003 8699 PAYPAL 6933 *MEMBER 402 935 7733 US £1.25
09/05/2003 12/05/2003 5999 PAYPAL EUROPE LTD 402 935 7733 GB
£ 25.00
09/05/2003 12/05/2003 5941 B/POOL A R CO LD BLACKPOOL GB £30.00
11/05/2003 12/05/2003 5200 FOCUS DIY & GARDENINHERTFORD GB £13.16
11/05/2003 12/05/2003 5200 FOCUS DIY & GARDENINHERTFORD GB £42.03
11/05/2003 13/05/2003 5411 SAINSBURYS HODDESDON GB £51.59
13/05/2003 13/05/2003 0 DIRECT DR PAYMENT - THANK YOU £2,223.17
CR

© 2003 MBNA Europe Bank Limited
Privacy Terms of Use

****************************************************************************
--

regards,

Robin Bignall

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus

On Wed, 14 May 2003 02:26:54 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Dr Robin Bignall,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
> We're sorry to hear you're thinking about closing your PayPal Account.
> We value you as a customer, and we ask that you carefully consider your
> decision. If you think there is a chance you may want to use our
> service in the future, it is not necessary to close your account.
> You're welcome to use your account as much or as little as you wish.
>
> To close your PayPal Account:
>
> Click https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=ap_close or copy and paste the entire
> link into the address bar, and follow the instructions.
>
> Note: Any pending money requests will automatically be canceled once
> the account is closed.
>
> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
> again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Beth
> PayPal Finance Department
>
> Original Message Follows:
> ------------------------
> PayPal,
> I am severely disabled and live alone. It will take me a great deal of time
> and effort, which I do not know if I can manage alone, to do these things.
> Your requirement for documents reminds me very much of the French
> bureaucracy. I have been disabled for a long time, and have had to buy
> everything via the internet, from $5 software to a £1000 flat screen, and
> this is the first time I've had problems. All this for a few DVDs costing
> peanuts.
> Apart from that I do not have a fax machine and live in Europe, have not
> worked for more than 10 years and cannot afford transAtlantic phone calls.
> The only deduction for $1.75 from you that appears on my credit card
> statement has xxxx against it as your 4-digit code. If your system will not
> accept that then too bad for your system.
> I am going to contact my credit card company right now to cancel that
> payment, to leave the £12 in place for the DVD I have already bought, and
> instruct them to accept no more transactions from PayPal. I am also going
> to copy this statement I am writing now to Ebay, and to all of my
> correspondents world-wide. Your system is mickey-mouse beyond belief.

[*** RB to PayPal]

========
To: "webform@paypal.com" <webform@paypal.com>
Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM300xxxx7V17025L0KM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:29:46 +0100
--------
PayPal,
This is very strange. I do not remember doing such a thing yesterday. Why
on earth would I request a new number when I was not yet even a member? I
wonder if, by accident, I entered the wrong number into your verification
panel and your system took automatic steps. I notice that your security is
very tight. If you look at the statement again, you will see another
4-digit number against my original $1.75 entry - 8699. That is MBNA's own
transaction number, which I originally mistook for the number that you
want, and which I tried to enter several times on your panel, with the
obvious result that it was refused. Either I then got confused and answered
a question wrongly, or your system took appropriate steps. Or something.

I will wait for the new number to appear, as you suggest, but I hope that
this folderol will not cause another $1.75 to be deducted.
--

regards,

Robin

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus

[*** RB. It did deduct another $1.75]

On Wed, 14 May 2003 09:34:54 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Dr Robin Bignall,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
> The original charge was sent to your card on 5/8/03, which is the Member
> Number you are providing. However, on 5/13/03, you requested a new Member
> Number, which automatically voids the first number. You will need to wait
> for the second charge to appear on your statement. This typically takes
> 2-4 business days.
>

[*** RB. This is bullshit. I did nothing of the kind.]

> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Barbara
> PayPal Customer Service
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Original Message Follows:
> ------------------------
> PayPal,
> I have spoken to my credit card company, MBNA, this morning. I have been a
> customer of theirs and had a gold credit card for at least a decade. They
> attempted to call you and put me through to you while they listened in, but
> it was too early to get a response from the phone number they had for you.
> They have asked me to try again at 6 pm my time, but since you are
> responding to e-mails that may not be necessary.
> Understand that I signed up with PayPal just so that I could use Ebay to
> purchase tiny items such as DVDs and minor software from people too small
> to have any other mechanism for the receipt of payments. The two payments I
> have already made are £25 for SpyBot software, a voluntary donation, and
>£ 12 for a DVD.
> MBNA know the PayPal scheme perfectly, and I did not have to explain to
> them any of its intricacies. Both MBNA and I can verify that the 4-digit
> number next to your $1.75 membership fee (which translates to £1.50 in UKP)
> on my statement is xxxx. Your automated system thinks this is an old
> number, for some reason, but it is the only number on the statement, and
> your system must therefore be at fault. I wrote my first program in 1965
> during my PhD, and worked for IBM for 25 years, so I know a little about
> systems.
> Apart from not having a fax, and not being able to leave home, some of the
> things you are asking for are ridiculous. A copy of an official government
> document with my name and photo, for example. I had to do that with my
> passport when I went to work in France the day the UK joined the Common
> Market. I lived there for 15 years and never had to do it again.
> I will attach a copy of my latest credit card statement below, but I will
> not fax a copy of the front and rear of my credit card (even if I had a
> fax) to you or anybody else, for any reason whatsoever.
> Your whole approach is to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
> Please do one of two things.
> After reading my statement, as below, either verify my account and let us
> have no more of this nonsense, or refund my $1.75 and we will call it a
> day.
> The following is a simple screen copy of the MBNA screen. It does not show
> my credit card number for reasons which should be obvious. You will have to
> take my word for it that the card, which starts with 5441 and ends 0009 is
> the one referred to. I have no other. Your transaction with the disputed
> 6933 number if highlighted by a series of >>>>>>>> in its left hand column.
> ******************** Credit card statement ***********************
>
>
>
>
> Registered Accounts Edit E-mail Address Change Password Add or...

........
[Yet another sending of my credit card info and all details. Removed to avoid repetition]]

> MasterCard Gold
> Acct# ending xxxxx --- *** they could not even get this right. RB]
> DR R BIGNALL
xxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx
> Change Address
>
> Available for Cash or Purchases
>£ 11,719.80
>

> © 2003 MBNA Europe Bank Limited
> Privacy Terms of Use
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> *

========
To: webform@paypal.com
Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM30xxxxxxV17025L0KM)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:55:41 +0100
--------
Gentlemen,
I spoke with MBNA, with whom I have had a gold card for a decade, and they
have confirmed that you took from my card, 5441........0009 two separate
new membership payments of $1.75, which appeared on my statement here in
England on May 9th and May 14th, respectively. Since I live alone and am
not schizophrenic, you have charged me twice for the same membership.

$1.75 is not a big deal, but I object to what I see as a rip-off. MBNA will
be handling this matter on my behalf, and you will hear from them.
--

regards,

Robin Bignall

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus 2003 Pro
On Wed, 14 May 2003 18:29:46 +0100, you wrote:

>Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM300xxxxxx17025L0KM)
> From: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:29:46 +0100
>
> PayPal,
> This is very strange. I do not remember doing such a thing yesterday. Why
> on earth would I request a new number when I was not yet even a member? I
> wonder if, by accident, I entered the wrong number into your verification
> panel and your system took automatic steps. I notice that your security is
> very tight. If you look at the statement again, you will see another
> 4-digit number against my original $1.75 entry - 8699. That is MBNA's own
> transaction number, which I originally mistook for the number that you
> want, and which I tried to enter several times on your panel, with the
> obvious result that it was refused. Either I then got confused and answered
> a question wrongly, or your system took appropriate steps. Or something.
>
> I will wait for the new number to appear, as you suggest, but I hope that
> this folderol will not cause another $1.75 to be deducted.
> --
>
> regards,
>
> Robin
>
> Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus
>
>
> On Wed, 14 May 2003 09:34:54 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Dear Dr Robin Bignall,
>>
>> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>>
>> The original charge was sent to your card on 5/8/03, which is the Member
>> Number you are providing. However, on 5/13/03, you requested a new Member
>> Number, which automatically voids the first number. You will need to wait
>> for the second charge to appear on your statement. This typically takes
>> 2-4 business days.
>>

[More bullshit.]

>> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Barbara
>> PayPal Customer Service
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Original Message Follows:
>> ------------------------
>> PayPal,
>> I have spoken to my credit card company, MBNA, this morning. I have been a
>> customer of theirs and had a gold credit card for at least a decade. They
>> attempted to call you and put me through to you while they listened in, but
>> it was too early to get a response from the phone number they had for you.
>> They have asked me to try again at 6 pm my time, but since you are
>> responding to e-mails that may not be necessary.
>> Understand that I signed up with PayPal just so that I could use Ebay to
>> purchase tiny items such as DVDs and minor software from people too small
>> to have any other mechanism for the receipt of payments. The two payments I
>> have already made are £25 for SpyBot software, a voluntary donation, and
>>£ 12 for a DVD.
>> MBNA know the PayPal scheme perfectly, and I did not have to explain to
>> them any of its intricacies. Both MBNA and I can verify that the 4-digit
>> number next to your $1.75 membership fee (which translates to £1.50 in UKP)
>> on my statement is 6933. Your automated system thinks this is an old
>> number, for some reason, but it is the only number on the statement, and
>> your system must therefore be at fault. I wrote my first program in 1965
>> during my PhD, and worked for IBM for 25 years, so I know a little about
>> systems.
>> Apart from not having a fax, and not being able to leave home, some of the
>> things you are asking for are ridiculous. A copy of an official government
>> document with my name and photo, for example. I had to do that with my
>> passport when I went to work in France the day the UK joined the Common
>> Market. I lived there for 15 years and never had to do it again.
>> I will attach a copy of my latest credit card statement below, but I will
>> not fax a copy of the front and rear of my credit card (even if I had a
>> fax) to you or anybody else, for any reason whatsoever.
>> Your whole approach is to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
>> Please do one of two things.
>> After reading my statement, as below, either verify my account and let us
>> have no more of this nonsense, or refund my $1.75 and we will call it a
>> day.
>> The following is a simple screen copy of the MBNA screen. It does not show
>> my credit card number for reasons which should be obvious. You will have to
>> take my word for it that the card, which starts with 5441 and ends 0009 is
>> the one referred to. I have no other. Your transaction with the disputed
>> 6933 number if highlighted by a series of >>>>>>>> in its left hand column.
>> ******************** Credit card statement ***********************
>>
>>
>>
....................................

..................................... snipped same bloody detail, ove and over again ..........
>>

>> Account Snapshot
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> MasterCard Gold
>> Acct# ending xxxxx
>> DR R BIGNALL
xxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx
>> Change Address
>>
>> Available for Cash or Purchases
>>£ 11,719.80
>>
>>
[Deatil snipped. Just repeated over and over and totally ignored by PayPal]

>> © 2003 MBNA Europe Bank Limited
>> Privacy Terms of Use
>>
>>
>> ***************************************************************************
>> *

========
To: docrobin@ntlworld.com
Subject: You have successfully lifted your withdrawal limit
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:05:33 -0700
--------

Dear robin Bignall,

Congratulations! Your withdrawal limit has now been lifted,
and you may withdraw unlimited funds from your PayPal
account. Please keep in mind that the minimum withdrawal
amount is $10.00, or the U.S. Dollar equivalent of $10.00 in
the currency in which you make your withdrawal. For more
information on minimum withdrawal amounts, please go to

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fees-withdrawal-outside

and click on the "minimum amount" link below the Fee table.

To withdraw funds, log in to your account and go to
the "Withdraw" subtab of the "My Account" tab and
follow the on-screen instructions.

Thank you for using PayPal,

The PayPal Team

----------------------------------------------------------------
PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD

========
To: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110 (KMM30359399V4045L0KM)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:35:01 -0700
--------
Dear Dr. Robin Bignall,

Thank you for contacting PayPal. We apologize for the delay in responding
to your service request.

Membership Fees completed after 7/9/02 will be credited to your PayPal
Account as a bonus. The $1.95 bonus will be credited to the PayPal account
balance within 24 hours of successfully sending a completed payment using
the credit card that completed the Membership Process. Once your have
completed the Membership Process, PayPal will be happy to refund both fees
back to your PayPal Account balance. We apologize for any confusion or
inconvenience.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.

[*** Needless to say, this was never done]

Sincerely,
Shelley
PayPal Global Services

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

Gentlemen,
I spoke with MBNA, with whom I have had a gold card for a decade, and they
have confirmed that you took from my card, 5441........0009 two separate
new membership payments of $1.75, which appeared on my statement here in
England on May 9th and May 14th, respectively. Since I live alone and am
not schizophrenic, you have charged me twice for the same membership.
$1.75 is not a big deal, but I object to what I see as a rip-off. MBNA will
be handling this matter on my behalf, and you will hear from them.
--
regards,
Robin Bignall
Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus 2003 Pro
On Wed, 14 May 2003 18:29:46 +0100, you wrote:
> Subject: Re: GettingStarted:Verified/Unverified:11:110
(KMM3001xxxxxx7025L0KM)
> From: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:29:46 +0100
>
> PayPal,
> This is very strange. I do not remember doing such a thing yesterday. Why
> on earth would I request a new number when I was not yet even a member? I
> wonder if, by accident, I entered the wrong number into your verification
> panel and your system took automatic steps. I notice that your security is
> very tight. If you look at the statement again, you will see another
> 4-digit number against my original $1.75 entry - 8699. That is MBNA's own
> transaction number, which I originally mistook for the number that you
> want, and which I tried to enter several times on your panel, with the
> obvious result that it was refused. Either I then got confused and
answered
> a question wrongly, or your system took appropriate steps. Or something.
>
> I will wait for the new number to appear, as you suggest, but I hope that
> this folderol will not cause another $1.75 to be deducted.

>--
>
> regards,
>
> Robin
>
> Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus
>
>
> On Wed, 14 May 2003 09:34:54 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Dear Dr Robin Bignall,
>>
>> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>>
>> The original charge was sent to your card on 5/8/03, which is the Member
>> Number you are providing. However, on 5/13/03, you requested a new
Member
>> Number, which automatically voids the first number. You will need to
wait
>> for the second charge to appear on your statement. This typically takes
>> 2-4 business days.
>>
>> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Barbara
>> PayPal Customer Service
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Original Message Follows:
>> ------------------------
>> PayPal,
>> I have spoken to my credit card company, MBNA, this morning. I have been
a
>> customer of theirs and had a gold credit card for at least a decade. They
>> attempted to call you and put me through to you while they listened in,
but
>> it was too early to get a response from the phone number they had for
you.
>> They have asked me to try again at 6 pm my time, but since you are
>> responding to e-mails that may not be necessary.
>> Understand that I signed up with PayPal just so that I could use Ebay to
>> purchase tiny items such as DVDs and minor software from people too small
>> to have any other mechanism for the receipt of payments. The two payments
I
>> have already made are £25 for SpyBot software, a voluntary donation, and
>>£ 12 for a DVD.
>> MBNA know the PayPal scheme perfectly, and I did not have to explain to
>> them any of its intricacies. Both MBNA and I can verify that the 4-digit
>> number next to your $1.75 membership fee (which translates to £1.50 in
UKP)
>> on my statement is xxxx. Your automated system thinks this is an old
>> number, for some reason, but it is the only number on the statement, and
>> your system must therefore be at fault. I wrote my first program in 1965
>> during my PhD, and worked for IBM for 25 years, so I know a little about
>> systems.
>> Apart from not having a fax, and not being able to leave home, some of
the
>> things you are asking for are ridiculous. A copy of an official
government
>> document with my name and photo, for example. I had to do that with my
>> passport when I went to work in France the day the UK joined the Common
>> Market. I lived there for 15 years and never had to do it again.
>> I will attach a copy of my latest credit card statement below, but I will
>> not fax a copy of the front and rear of my credit card (even if I had a
>> fax) to you or anybody else, for any reason whatsoever.
>> Your whole approach is to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
>> Please do one of two things.
>> After reading my statement, as below, either verify my account and let us
>> have no more of this nonsense, or refund my $1.75 and we will call it a >> day.
>> The following is a simple screen copy of the MBNA screen. It does not
show
>> my credit card number for reasons which should be obvious. You will have
to
>> take my word for it that the card, which starts with 5441 and ends 0009
is
>> the one referred to. I have no other. Your transaction with the disputed
>> xxxx number if highlighted by a series of >>>>>>>> in its left hand
column. >> ******************** Credit card statement ***********************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Registered Accounts Edit E-mail Address Change Password Add or
>> Remove Account Contact Help Log Off
>>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> Snapshot
>>
>>
>> Statements
>>
>>
>> Maintain Your Account
>> >>

>> Access Cash
>>
>>
>> Benefits
>>
>>
>> Quick Links:
>> Balance TransferPay Other BillsPayment ProtectionMBNA Card AlertAddress
>> ChangeCredit Limit IncreasePIN ReminderReplacement CardsCredit Card

>> ChequesAdd Authorised UserGiro Slip RequestDirect Debit MandateDownload
>> Statements
>>
>> Go
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>>
[*** repeat of same credit card info]
>>
>>

>>*************************************************************************
**
>> *

========
To: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
Subject: AutoResponse - Email Returned SAXK (KMM3041xxxxxx8042L0KM)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:41:39 -0700
--------
Dear Dr Robin Bignall,

Thank you for contacting PayPal Customer Service.

If your email program is unable to open hyperlinks, please copy and paste
this URL into the address bar of your browser.

https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=default

If you are contacting PayPal because you are unable to log into your
account, please use the contact form below.

https://www.paypal.com/ewf/f=default

Thank you for choosing PayPal!

Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address will not be
answered.

********************************************
Original Email:
I would like to know why your system, after processing 8 or 10 payments for
DVDs from Ebay during the last 2 weeks, with my credit card verified and
good for over £11,000 of credit, suddenly denies my payments, saying it
cannot verify my card on the very last 'pay' screen. The two transactions
amount to less than £20.
--
regards,
Robin
Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus 2003 Pro

[This is where the AEU stuff starts!]

========
To: AEU, AUE
Subject: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 01:04:00 +0100
--------
For information.

After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.

They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
May 9.

Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.

What a load of wankers.

Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
cheques.

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Remote Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:51:41 -0400
--------
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 01:04:00 +0100 Dr Robin
Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:

The total cost should be 1.75? How do they make their money? On the
interest free load I would give them by putting in more money than I
plan to spend?

Interesting that you post now because I had planned to sign up
tonight. I have a friend who has been paying for me and I've been
reimbursing him. But I think eventually this will be an imposition,
and I'm under the impression now that one doesn't have to deposit more
than he is spending. Is that true? (When I buy something, I always
figure it's the last thing I will ever need. So I always figure that
I will never use or get back the excess, so I didnt' want put in more
than I was spending.)

You just signed up on May 5th or is this the second and third time
they have charged you the new membership fee?

P&M

>Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>
> What a load of wankers.
>
> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> cheques.

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:56:47 GMT
--------
On Sun, 25 May 2003 20:51:41 -0400, the renowned meirman
< meirman@invalid.com> wrote:

Yes, and they charge a percentage (something like 3%) on transactions
charged to a credit card.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
" it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:50:06 -0400
--------
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 00:56:47 GMT Spehro Pefhany
< speff@interlog.com> posted:

>On Sun, 25 May 2003 20:51:41 -0400, the renowned meirman
>< meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 01:04:00 +0100 Dr Robin
>> Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:
>>
>>> For information.
>>>
>>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
>>> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
>>> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
>>> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
>>> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
>>> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>>
>>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
>>> May 9.
>>
>> The total cost should be 1.75? How do they make their money? On the
>> interest free load I would give them by putting in more money than I
>> plan to spend?
>
> Yes, and they charge a percentage (something like 3%) on transactions
> charged to a credit card.

So my friend has been paying 3% all this time!!!?

I guess I'm sort of stupid to have thought they did this for nothing,
but I've known for quite some time that I'm sort of stupid.

No, I thought it was it was the interest-free money. I'm stupid, but
for a different reason.

I'm trying to remember everything he has paid for for me. Last time I
gave him 17 dollars and there was a Promise 66 card and a set of lamp
prisms. And an Encylopedia Britannica CD and another CD. I think
altogether it is under** 100 dollars, but still.

**And my list is still growing. (I usually keep the descriptions of
what I bought, and there's nothing in that folder I didn't think of
above.)

You know all those offers where they don't tell the price until you're
half or 90% through signing up? I guess I got fooled by that here,
but it's my friend who paid for it, paid the 3 dollars. I'll bet you
he won't take it from me, too.

Thanks for telling me. It's not that much money, but I'll find some
way to make things even.

>Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 03:11:23 GMT
--------
On Sun, 25 May 2003 22:50:06 -0400, the renowned meirman
< meirman@invalid.com> wrote:

>>Yes, and they charge a percentage (something like 3%) on transactions
>> charged to a credit card.
>
> So my friend has been paying 3% all this time!!!?
< snippage>

I guess I didn't make it clear. They charge the recipient, just like
the bank charges a company when they accept a credit card (but more
than most retail establishments pay). If someone pays me $400 off a
credit card, Paypal pockets $12 and credits the difference to my
account. Some vendors absorb it as they think that the additional
sales and (in some cases) reduced risk of bad cheques/checks makes up
for it. In the case of eBay auctions (eBay owns Paypal, dontcha know?)
sellers are not allowed to charge a premium , so represents no cost to
the person paying. Except in the UK, where they are allowed to charge
a premium because some UK law trounces their preferred contract terms.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:51:03 -0400
--------
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 03:11:23 GMT Spehro Pefhany
< speff@interlog.com> posted:

>On Sun, 25 May 2003 22:50:06 -0400, the renowned meirman
>< meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>> Yes, and they charge a percentage (something like 3%) on transactions
>>> charged to a credit card.
>>
>> So my friend has been paying 3% all this time!!!?
>< snippage>
>
> I guess I didn't make it clear. They charge the recipient, just like
> the bank charges a company when they accept a credit card (but more

Thanks. I get it now. I feel better.

>than most retail establishments pay). If someone pays me $400 off a
> credit card, Paypal pockets $12 and credits the difference to my
> account. Some vendors absorb it as they think that the additional
> sales and (in some cases) reduced risk of bad cheques/checks makes up
> for it. In the case of eBay auctions (eBay owns Paypal, dontcha know?)

Didn't know that. Should have guessed.

>sellers are not allowed to charge a premium , so represents no cost to
> the person paying. Except in the UK, where they are allowed to charge
> a premium because some UK law trounces their preferred contract terms.

OK, even though my friend isn't losing money (and I could have been
giving him the 3% if he were) it's taking his time. And this order is
rather complicated (I bought two different kinds of printer ink, which
he will ship together, but he gives 7 days to pick out other things I
want. But he didn't have any.) so I thought I should get my own
account. Signed up so far so good.

Now it says to be verified I have to give it a bank account number. I
don't want to do that, do I? It says
> Get Verified
> Remove your Sending Limit by getting Verified!
>
> You can get Verified by adding and confirming a checking account. Verification increases the security of the PayPal network and allows you to spend more!

It doesn't say how much I can spend now. I'll bet 16 dollars is ok,
or even 30 for some memory.
>
> In addition to removing your account's Sending Limit, when you become Verified you'll be able to:
>
> * Fund your payments with your checking account

But I can use my credit card now.

> * Improve your reputation when other PayPal members know you're Verified

But I wasn't even signed up before, and everyone was nice to me.

>* Pay your bill online with PayPal's free BillPay service

I'm sure they'll take it online anyhow. For free.

>Plus, PayPal will enter you for a chance to win $1000 in our Verified Member Sweepstakes just for getting Verified.

Right, like I'm going to win.

They want me to do this, so that means I don't want to do it, right?

Meirman

>Steps to Verify Your Account:
> 1. Confirm your e-mail address Checked
> 2. Add and Confirm a checking account Empty
>
> What does "Verified" mean?
> Becoming Verified means that you maintain a confirmed bank account in your PayPal account. Because banks are required by law to screen account holders, Verification authenticates a member's identity and increases the security of the PayPal network for everyone.
>
> How do I become Verified?
> To become Verified, just add a bank account. PayPal will then send two small deposits to your bank account. Just find the deposit amounts and enter them on the PayPal website, and you'll be Verified! See a demo. See a demo.
>
> Is becoming Verified safe?
> Yes. PayPal uses military-strength encryption technology to keep your account information safe. In addition, when you become Verified, you only provide information that is already available on the bottom of every check you write. every check you write. And, as always, PayPal will never reveal any of your personal information.

>Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years

========
To: meirman@erols.com
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:58:04 +0100
--------
On Sun, 25 May 2003 20:51:42 -0400, you wrote:

>In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 01:04:00 +0100 Dr Robin
> Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:
>
>> For information.
>>
>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
>> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
>> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
>> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
>> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
>> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>
>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
>> May 9.
>
> The total cost should be 1.75? How do they make their money? On the
> interest free load I would give them by putting in more money than I
> plan to spend?
>
> Interesting that you post now because I had planned to sign up
> tonight. I have a friend who has been paying for me and I've been
> reimbursing him. But I think eventually this will be an imposition,
> and I'm under the impression now that one doesn't have to deposit more
> than he is spending. Is that true? (When I buy something, I always
> figure it's the last thing I will ever need. So I always figure that
> I will never use or get back the excess, so I didnt' want put in more
> than I was spending.)
>
> You just signed up on May 5th or is this the second and third time
> they have charged you the new membership fee?
>
> P&M
>
>> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
>> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>>
>> What a load of wankers.
>>
>> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
>> cheques.
>
>
Hi, meir,

one does not have to deposit anything if you have a credit card that they
verify. Payments then get deducted as and when. Like the CC companies
themselves, PP deducts a percentage of the price from the vendor.
They charge $1.75 for membership, which is supposed to be refunded after
you have sent more than a small amount of $ through them.
Trouble is, everything is automated and they will not accept that it can go
wrong, and e-mails have to go through their site. They just ignore them, or
send back bullshit. My CC company is investigating the double charge for
membership, which PayPal try to blame on me.
--

regards,

Robin

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus 2003 Pro

========
To:
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:23:08 +0100
--------
On Sun, 25 May 2003 20:51:41 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:

The cost of membership is $1.75. From what people have said in passing, the
advantage of PP, if it works, is that payment is instantaneous. The
disadvantage is that they subtract something (I do not know how much) from
the amount sent to the vendor. I only know this because several of the
vendors mention the 'expense' of PP without any details.

I shall append below a copy of the letter I wrote to my CC company today.
Other people may have had different experiences.

NOTE: this is a .txt file with all formatting removed from a Word 2003
file. It may be hard to make out the formatting. My letterhead (address,
phone, e-mail address, date/time etc.) is not copied during a 'save as' in
.txt.
*********************************************************************
To: MBNA Europe Ltd
PO Box 1004
Chester Business Park
Wrexham Road
Chester CH4 9WW

Reference: Account xx00xx000x
Gold Mastercard 5441 xxxx xxxx 0009

Dear Sirs,

Subject: PayPal

We have spoken on the telephone about this thoroughly arrogant and
useless organisation. You will recall that they charged me a membership
fee of $1.75 on May 5, 2003, and then another on May 9. My e-mail to them
was answered by an automatic mechanism which implied that I had cancelled
my membership and then reapplied!
About two weeks ago, despite this minor problem, they nevertheless
verified my credit card account with MBNA and I have so far bought about 20
DVDs via Ebay, of which I have received 6 . The vendors of the others are
either waiting for the cheques to clear, or the cheques are in the post. I
mailed seven today and have another three for tomorrow. (The most expensive
DVD was £21, so you can see that the money we are talking about is peanuts
– about £120 all told. I am in touch with the owners of the others, and
they are just waiting for my payments before shipping. Ebay works very well
indeed.
I have paid for roughly a dozen via PayPal, including two yesterday
morning. When I attempted to pay for some of the others, immediately
afterwards, while still online, I got to the final screen which says “Pay
now” for an irrevocable payment. The system said that it could not verify
the card it had used only a couple of minutes before, refused the payment,
and has continued to do so since then. I have had to explain to over a
dozen vendors the problems with PayPal, and send cheques. No hassle for me
except to get to a post box – all of the vendors are in England. But, each
attempt to pay via PayPal’s automated mechanism has registered on their
system as an attempted fraud. Only I, and their management (I hope!) can
see this, but it results from their complete and arrogant inability to
believe that their automated system can make a mistake.
Sirs, please do not waste your time (if you were thinking of doing
so) with this useless organisation. I put the $1.75 deducted twice down to
experience, and it is not worth even a one-minute phone call to such
people. I might add that after being rendered disabled, I have bought
hundreds of items via the Internet, from my thin-film monitor (a few pence
less than £1000) to a tiny piece of software that cost $5. All of these
were bought via my credit card, and you can see my history via a casual
glance at my files. Not once have I ever had any problem whatsoever, save
this one.

As for PayPal, forget you ever heard of them. I have.

Yours sincerely,

Dr Robin Bignall

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D:\mystuff\robinlet\Finance and banking\MBNA01.doc
Last printed 26/05/03 6:56 PM
Page 2 of 2

Registered Disabled
Ealing, November 1997

Dr Robin Bignall Telephone: (UK)
01992 xxxxxx
23 xxxxxxx Close (Abroad)
441992 xxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx
Herts ENxx xxx E-mail
docrobin@ntlworld.com
UK
Created on 26/05/2003 6:25 PM

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MBNA01.doc Last printed 26/05/03 6:56 PM
Page 1 of 1

Registered Disabled
Ealing, November 1997

****************************************************************

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Remote Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:20:22 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 19:23:08 GMT, Dr Robin Bignall wrote

-snip-

> The cost of membership is $1.75. From what people have said in
> passing, the advantage of PP, if it works, is that payment is
> instantaneous. The disadvantage is that they subtract something (I
> do not know how much) from the amount sent to the vendor. I only
> know this because several of the vendors mention the 'expense' of
> PP without any details.

I know absolutely zilch about the operation of PP, but it would be
interesting to hear what the "merchant cost" of dealing with PP is,
when compared with the direct use of a credit card.

As I understand it, cards like Visa charge the merchant up to 5% of the
transaction cost, but are allowed to contractually *insist* that the
merchant cannot quote different prices for "cash price" vs "card
price".

I've always been surprised, given the laws on unfair contracts and
such-like, that it's not illegal for and other card companies to
insist, as part of the contract, that a merchant may not differentiate
between a "cash price" and a "card price".

--
Cheers, Harvey

Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 20 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:45:13 -0700
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:20:22 +0100, Harvey Van Sickle
< harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> I've always been surprised, given the laws on unfair contracts and
> such-like, that it's not illegal for and other card companies to
> insist, as part of the contract, that a merchant may not differentiate
> between a "cash price" and a "card price".

It is, in California. Discounts for cash are entirely legal although
I can't quote the exact statute. ARCO, for example, used to post both
cash and credit prices. I don't buy gas at ARCO so I don't know if
they still have both sets of prices.

The merchants' contracts can prohibit them from requiring a surcharge
for using a credit card, but the state insists that the merchants be
able to offer a discount for cash.

Mary
--
Mary Shafer miliff@qnet.com
Retired aerospace research engineer
" The guy you don't see will kill you." BGEN Robin Olds, USAF

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:55:21 -0700
--------
Mary Shafer wrote:
> Harvey Van Sickle wrote:

>> I've always been surprised, given the laws on unfair contracts and
>> such-like, that it's not illegal for and other card companies to
>> insist, as part of the contract, that a merchant may not
>> differentiate between a "cash price" and a "card price".
>
> It is, in California. Discounts for cash are entirely legal although
> I can't quote the exact statute. ARCO, for example, used to post both
> cash and credit prices. I don't buy gas at ARCO so I don't know if
> they still have both sets of prices.

They don't. I buy most of my gas form ARCO. A long time ago some
laboratory tested gasolines, and ARCO and Mobil came out to be the top rated
two. There are many who claim that all gasoline brands are the same, but
that, obviously, ignores the difference in brand-specific additives. I used
to have several cars that could not use Shell (with TCP, was it?) without
severe degradation in performance and pinging. I still don't use Shell.
Ever.

> The merchants' contracts can prohibit them from requiring a surcharge
> for using a credit card, but the state insists that the merchants be
> able to offer a discount for cash.

Works out pretty much the same. It's all in the way you look at it. I have
seen quite a few ads stating sales prices as "cash price only".
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:11:28 GMT
--------
<< [Mary Shafer]
It is, in California. Discounts for cash are entirely legal although
I can't quote the exact statute. ARCO, for example, used to post both
cash and credit prices. I don't buy gas at ARCO so I don't know if
they still have both sets of prices.

The merchants' contracts can prohibit them from requiring a surcharge
for using a credit card, but the state insists that the merchants be
able to offer a discount for cash.
[end quote] >>

Arco has one price now because they eliminated credit cards.
(They do allow debit cards)

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:21:37 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:11:28 GMT, Richard Maurer wrote

-snip-

> Arco has one price now because they eliminated credit cards.
> (They do allow debit cards)

Would I be wrong in assuming that -- like most such things over there -
- this is a state-by-state thing? (That is, are there still states
where the merchant can be blocked by the credit card firms from
offering a cash discount?)

Also, are the banks allowed to charge the merchant for the use of a
debit card?

I could be wrong, but I think that in the UK the "merchant cost" for
credit or debit cards is pretty similar.

--
Cheers, Harvey

Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 20 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:31:46 GMT
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 22:21:37 +0100, the renowned Harvey Van Sickle
< harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:11:28 GMT, Richard Maurer wrote
>
> -snip-
>
>
>> Arco has one price now because they eliminated credit cards.
>> (They do allow debit cards)
>
> Would I be wrong in assuming that -- like most such things over there -
> - this is a state-by-state thing? (That is, are there still states
> where the merchant can be blocked by the credit card firms from
> offering a cash discount?)
>
> Also, are the banks allowed to charge the merchant for the use of a
> debit card?

Yes, but it is much less, perhaps comparable with the cost of handling
cash when you include counterfeits and other hidden costs. I think
it's something like a flat 25 cents US (equivalent) fee per
transaction, with little or no percentage component.

>I could be wrong, but I think that in the UK the "merchant cost" for
> credit or debit cards is pretty similar.

I doubt it. Maybe with the high prices in the UK they hardly notice a
percent or two missing.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:48:54 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:31:46 GMT, Spehro Pefhany wrote
> On Mon, 26 May 2003 22:21:37 +0100, the renowned Harvey Van Sickle
>< harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:

-snip-

>> Also, are the banks allowed to charge the merchant for the use of
>> a debit card?

> Yes, but it is much less, perhaps comparable with the cost of
> handling cash when you include counterfeits and other hidden
> costs. I think it's something like a flat 25 cents US
> (equivalent) fee per transaction, with little or no percentage
> component.

>> I could be wrong, but I think that in the UK the "merchant cost"
>> for credit or debit cards is pretty similar.

> I doubt it. Maybe with the high prices in the UK they hardly
> notice a percent or two missing.

Hmmm......perhaps. But I'd like to hear from a UK merchant on this
before I take your doubt as gospel.... ;)

I seem to recall that when they first brought out debit cards here, not
only was it on a percentage charge, but the percentage was *higher* for
debit than for credit cards.

(Or perhaps the flat-rate charge was so high it could hit 20% of the
transaction charge. There are places I visit -- the Guildhall Library
shop in London, for instance -- which won't accept debit or credit
cards for anything under five pounds. They'll accept a cheque, though,
for which they're probably charged a business depositing fee -- last
time I checked on that, it was around 50p per cheque.)

--
Cheers, Harvey

Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 20 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:23:35 -0400
--------

"Mary Shafer" <miliff@qnet.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hvu4dvsmccsvmi5hspvg0b6be0e1uaqkej@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:20:22 +0100, Harvey Van Sickle
> <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > I've always been surprised, given the laws on unfair contracts and
> > such-like, that it's not illegal for and other card companies to
> > insist, as part of the contract, that a merchant may not
differentiate
> > between a "cash price" and a "card price".
>
> It is, in California. Discounts for cash are entirely legal although
> I can't quote the exact statute. ARCO, for example, used to post both
> cash and credit prices. I don't buy gas at ARCO so I don't know if
> they still have both sets of prices.
>
> The merchants' contracts can prohibit them from requiring a surcharge
> for using a credit card, but the state insists that the merchants be
> able to offer a discount for cash.
>

They tried that here (in Virginia) for awhile, too. I don't think they
still offer two prices. As you said, filling stations were not allowed
to add a surcharge for credit-card purchases, though they could offer a
cash discount. That meant that the price displayed on the pump was the
price you paid by credit card, but you had to depend on a cashier's math
to get the cash discount. This did not make it a popular option. It was
a royal pain to try to figure how much you could pump to get five bucks'
worth of gas, and even if you could figure it out, you still had to
spend the time waiting for the cashier to do the same.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:00:34 GMT
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:20:22 +0100, the renowned Harvey Van Sickle
< harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 May 2003 19:23:08 GMT, Dr Robin Bignall wrote
>
> -snip-
>
>> The cost of membership is $1.75. From what people have said in
>> passing, the advantage of PP, if it works, is that payment is
>> instantaneous. The disadvantage is that they subtract something (I
>> do not know how much) from the amount sent to the vendor. I only
>> know this because several of the vendors mention the 'expense' of
>> PP without any details.
>
> I know absolutely zilch about the operation of PP, but it would be
> interesting to hear what the "merchant cost" of dealing with PP is,
> when compared with the direct use of a credit card.
>
> As I understand it, cards like Visa charge the merchant up to 5% of the
> transaction cost, but are allowed to contractually *insist* that the
> merchant cannot quote different prices for "cash price" vs "card
> price".

It can be much less- typically I think established merchants with
retail establishments who "swipe" (there's a word) cards through their
machines pay around 0.8-2%. There are a lot of overhead costs (minimum
monthly charges if you don't meet the transaction frequency they want,
terminal rental costs and so on). They also want some of your money to
hang onto indefinitely in case of "charge backs". You get piddly
interest on the money, but it can't be used in your business. It's a
multiple of estimated gross monthly credit card sales so it could be
tens of thousands of dollars or more, gone for many years. They are
especially wary of mail order users who don't see the actual credit
card because of the obvious potential for fraud (sell $50,000 worth of
plasma TVs then quit town without shipping). It's really not set up
for the micro-user like Paypal is. A competitor came out earlier with
a service with a whopping 9% charge, and they were enjoying some
success. There are other services that specialize in "soft" or
subscription sales such as porn websites or information sales.

>I've always been surprised, given the laws on unfair contracts and
> such-like, that it's not illegal for and other card companies to
> insist, as part of the contract, that a merchant may not differentiate
> between a "cash price" and a "card price".

It is in the UK, apparently. All the small computer stores in Toronto
list their prices at a "cash discount price" and you have to pay 3% or
4% more to use credit cards rather than cash or Interac (debit card).
The vendor agreement for Amex even demands that you keep a supply of
their cardholder applications available in a public area. I'd be
tempted to put them in the washroom in case the paper ran out, but
that's probably specifically prohibited.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:28:24 -0400
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003, Dr Robin Bignall wrote:

> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> cheques.

Good man. There's no progress without getting rid of the Middleman.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:13:06 +0100
--------
" R F" <rf243@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote...
> On Mon, 26 May 2003, Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
> > Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> > cheques.
>
> Good man. There's no progress without getting rid of the Middleman.

Are you some kind of Communist, Rupert? Get with the programme toot
sweet.

Matti

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 03:38:08 GMT
--------
Dr Robin Bignall wrote:

> For information.
>
> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>
> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
> May 9.
>
> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>
> What a load of wankers.
>
> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> cheques.

My beef with PayPal is that I'm disabled, with only $47/mo in state
assistance for income, so I cannot open a bank account, let alone get a
credit card. I sell artworks online, using PayPal. PayPal adamantly refuses
to let me use their service to spend the money I get from my sales (and
which they charge me a transaction fee for) using PayPal because I cannot
" validate" my account with a credit card number; the only way I can get my
funds is to have them send me a check. There are dozens of different ways
they could use to ensure that I am who I am, that I live where I say I do,
etc., but they can't be bothered. What utter bullshit.

--
Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA
gary at cdfound dot org / http:// geetee dot cdfound dot org
" The two most abundant things in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:37:33 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 03:38:08 GMT, "Gary G. Taylor"
< knotgary@knotcdfound.org> wrote:

>Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>> For information.
>>
>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
>> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
>> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
>> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
>> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
>> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>
>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
>> May 9.
>>
>> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
>> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>>
>> What a load of wankers.
>>
>> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
>> cheques.
>
> My beef with PayPal is that I'm disabled, with only $47/mo in state
> assistance for income, so I cannot open a bank account, let alone get a
> credit card. I sell artworks online, using PayPal. PayPal adamantly refuses
> to let me use their service to spend the money I get from my sales (and
> which they charge me a transaction fee for) using PayPal because I cannot
>" validate" my account with a credit card number; the only way I can get my
> funds is to have them send me a check. There are dozens of different ways
> they could use to ensure that I am who I am, that I live where I say I do,
> etc., but they can't be bothered. What utter bullshit.

I am glad that someone else shares my view, with cause.

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Remote Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

========
To:
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:37:33 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 03:38:08 GMT, "Gary G. Taylor"
< knotgary@knotcdfound.org> wrote:

I am glad that someone else shares my view, with cause.

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Remote Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:33:20 +0100
--------
Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
> For information.
>
> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.

Send me your credit card number and I'll try it out for you.

> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
> May 9.
>
> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>
> What a load of wankers.
>
> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> cheques.

Fingers crossed, I haven't had any problem with them yet. I am taking
some rental payments for our French villas via PayPal - large amounts
but infrequent. So far they've done exactly what they offered, and
charged me what they said they would.

If you want a UK, alternative, NatWest run one called Fastpay
http://www.fastpay.com/ - I would use this myself but I need to take
payments in Euros.

--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:55:23 -0400
--------
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 09:33:20 +0100 david56
< bass.b.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:

Could you check mine too?

>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
>> May 9.
>>
>> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
>> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>>
>> What a load of wankers.
>>
>> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
>> cheques.
>
> Fingers crossed, I haven't had any problem with them yet. I am taking
> some rental payments for our French villas via PayPal - large amounts
> but infrequent. So far they've done exactly what they offered, and
> charged me what they said they would.

There is a whole newsgroup or two devoted to ebay. When I looked a
year or two ago, there was someone complaining that they had taken the
money from the payer but wouldn't turn it over to the recipient for
some reason. If this had been really bad, it might have made the
news. But it will surely be a topic on the newsgroup. Since I don't
deal with substantial money, I don't worry about this.

alt.anti-ebay
alt.buyers.ebay
alt.marketing.online.ebay
alt.marketplace.online.ebay

I think one or two were empty.
>
> If you want a UK, alternative, NatWest run one called Fastpay
> http://www.fastpay.com/ - I would use this myself but I need to take
> payments in Euros.

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 17 years

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:59:18 +0100
--------
meirman wrote:
> In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 09:33:20 +0100 david56
> <bass.b.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:
>
>> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>
>>> For information.
>>>
>>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
>>> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
>>> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
>>> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
>>> were less than Â£20 in total: the card can go up to Â£11,000 without any
>>> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>
>> Send me your credit card number and I'll try it out for you.
>
> Could you check mine too?

If you all want a service you'll have to pay. Send me your credit card
number and $20 and I'll see what I can do.

--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:35:41 +0100
--------
david56 wrote:
> meirman wrote:
>> In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 09:33:20 +0100 david56
>> <bass.b.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:
>>
>>> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>
>>>> For information.
>>>>
>>>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a
>>>> fully-validated gold credit card and PayPal account, and after
>>>> paying successfully for a about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this
>>>> morning, PayPal's automatic system started refusing that same
>>>> account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums were less than Â£20
>>>> in total: the card can go up to Â£11,000 without any alarms with
>>>> the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>>
>>> Send me your credit card number and I'll try it out for you.
>>
>> Could you check mine too?
>
> If you all want a service you'll have to pay. Send me your credit
> card number and $20 and I'll see what I can do.

I have some money waiting for me in Africa - could you arrange to transfer
it for me?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply

========
To:
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 01:01:59 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 19:35:41 +0100, "John Dean"
< john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:

>david56 wrote:
>> meirman wrote:
>>> In alt.english.usage on Mon, 26 May 2003 09:33:20 +0100 david56
>>> <bass.b.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:
>>>
>>>> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For information.
>>>>>
>>>>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a
>>>>> fully-validated gold credit card and PayPal account, and after
>>>>> paying successfully for a about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this
>>>>> morning, PayPal's automatic system started refusing that same
>>>>> account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums were less than Â£20
>>>>> in total: the card can go up to Â£11,000 without any alarms with
>>>>> the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>>>
>>>> Send me your credit card number and I'll try it out for you.
>>>
>>> Could you check mine too?
>>
>> If you all want a service you'll have to pay. Send me your credit
>> card number and $20 and I'll see what I can do.
>
> I have some money waiting for me in Africa - could you arrange to transfer
> it for me?

Only if you are a member of the Nigerian Government. There is an Oxford in
Nigeria, I presume?

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Remote Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:17:48 -0700
--------
in article 3ED1D150.5050603@ntlworld.com, david56 at
bass.b.voice@ntlworld.com wrote on 5/26/03 1:33 AM:

> Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>> For information.
>>
>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
>> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
>> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
>> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
>> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
>> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>
> Send me your credit card number and I'll try it out for you.
>
>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
>> May 9.
>>
>> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
>> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>>
>> What a load of wankers.
>>
>> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
>> cheques.
>
> Fingers crossed, I haven't had any problem with them yet. I am taking
> some rental payments for our French villas via PayPal - large amounts
> but infrequent. So far they've done exactly what they offered, and
> charged me what they said they would.
>
> If you want a UK, alternative, NatWest run one called Fastpay
> http://www.fastpay.com/ - I would use this myself but I need to take
> payments in Euros.

supercallifragilistic expialidocious...

Oh, oh, oh.................

Let's go fly a kite,
Up to the highest height,
Let's go fly a kite,
and send it soaring....
Up through the atmosphere,
up where the air is clear,
Oh, let's go....
Fly a kite.........

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: 26 May 2003 14:43:11 -0700
--------
david56 wrote

> If you want a UK, alternative, NatWest run one called Fastpay
> http://www.fastpay.com/ - I would use this myself but I need to take
> payments in Euros.

I find Nochex www.nochex.com very good for UK payments, although I've
just had to branch out into Paypal for sending an urgent payment to
the US. But that went ok and I doubt I'll use it again, so no issues
with PP here. DH and friends loathe it, though.

Jac

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:29:52 +0200
--------
Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
> For information.
>
> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a
> fully-validated gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying
> successfully for a about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning,
> PayPal's automatic system started refusing that same account / credit
> card at lunchtime. The sums were less than £20 in total: the card can
> go up to £11,000 without any alarms with the credit card company,
> because I have had it for years.
>
> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and
> again on May 9.
>
> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can
> fail.
>
> What a load of wankers.
>
> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> cheques.

I've given up on PayPal, too. They're not reliable enough. I don't like
receiving e-mails from people saying "Hey! I sent you the money, where's my
Ol' Spicy!".
Now, because I'm too damned lazy to make other arrangements, I just receive
e-mails saying "Hey! When are you going to put Ol' Spicy back on sale!"
What I need is a happy medium.

[LM] ... who will tell me that I'm in for some luck.

--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/
-----------------------------------------------------

========
To:
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 01:04:32 +0100
--------
On Mon, 26 May 2003 16:29:52 +0200, "Mark Wallace" <mwallace@dse.nl> wrote:

>Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>> For information.
>>
>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a
>> fully-validated gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying
>> successfully for a about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning,
>> PayPal's automatic system started refusing that same account / credit
>> card at lunchtime. The sums were less than £20 in total: the card can
>> go up to £11,000 without any alarms with the credit card company,
>> because I have had it for years.
>>
>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and
>> again on May 9.
>>
>> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
>> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can
>> fail.
>>
>> What a load of wankers.
>>
>> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
>> cheques.
>
> I've given up on PayPal, too. They're not reliable enough. I don't like
> receiving e-mails from people saying "Hey! I sent you the money, where's my
> Ol' Spicy!".
> Now, because I'm too damned lazy to make other arrangements, I just receive
> e-mails saying "Hey! When are you going to put Ol' Spicy back on sale!"
> What I need is a happy medium.
>
OK. Send all of your money to me.
--

wrmst rgrds

Gypsy "Happy" Rose Lee.

ps: but not via PayPal.

========
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: 26 May 2003 17:48:26 -0700
--------
Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<5rl2dvcfh46nq270b8jrn1s24o3gi2ilo0@4ax.com>...
> For information.
>
> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>
> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
> May 9.
>
> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>
> What a load of wankers.
>
> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
> cheques.

I largely avoid contact with Paypal. What little contact I had
suggests that they fall somewhere between incompetent and merely
inefficient. But it cannot be a good sign that googling 'paypal
sucks' produces over 16,000 hits (including, of course,
http://www.paypalsucks.com/). This volume of complaints suggests that
this is an outfit best avoided.

Richard R. Hershberger

========
To:
Subject: Re: Totally OT - PayPal useless.
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:34:56 +0100
--------
On 26 May 2003 17:48:26 -0700, rrhersh@acme.com (Richard R. Hershberger)
wrote:

>Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<5rl2dvcfh46nq270b8jrn1s24o3gi2ilo0@4ax.com>...
>> For information.
>>
>> After over three weeks of buying DVDs from Ebay, with a fully-validated
>> gold credit card and PayPal account, and after paying successfully for a
>> about 6 or 7 DVDs including two this morning, PayPal's automatic system
>> started refusing that same account / credit card at lunchtime. The sums
>> were less than £20 in total: the card can go up to £11,000 without any
>> alarms with the credit card company, because I have had it for years.
>>
>> They also charged me their $1.75 new membership fee on May 5 and again on
>> May 9.
>>
>> Exchanges of E-mails show that they are so fucking arrogant that they
>> cannot conceive of the possibility that their automatic systems can fail.
>>
>> What a load of wankers.
>>
>> Luckily all of the DVD vendors are in the UK, so I can send personal
>> cheques.
>
> I largely avoid contact with Paypal. What little contact I had
> suggests that they fall somewhere between incompetent and merely
> inefficient. But it cannot be a good sign that googling 'paypal
> sucks' produces over 16,000 hits (including, of course,
> http://www.paypalsucks.com/). This volume of complaints suggests that
> this is an outfit best avoided.
>
Richard, I am much obliged to you. I wondered for a very brief moment (but
only a very, very, brief moment) if I was paranoid. I simply could not
believe that there could be such an arrogantly dumb organisation outside of
fantasy novels.

My favourite fantasy novelist (in terms of volume of quite superb output
ever since the late 1940s) is Jack Vance. He wrote a book called "Servants
of the Wankh" (or a spelling something like that - I cannot put my hand on
it in my collection, which is not yet sorted alphabetically - one of those
things I will do someday). I must try to think of a similar title for my
forthcoming fantasy novel, which title should include "PayPal" and
" Wankers".

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Remote Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

========
To: robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: CreditCards:DeniedPayment:16:231 (KMM30454720V76839L0KM)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:26:40 -0700
--------
Dear robin Bignall,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Your issuing bank denied our request to verify this card. Please
contact your issuing bank for details on this.

[This has to be the biggest lie of all. My bank has nothing to do with my credit card. You have seen that my credit limit is over £11,000. The total amount I have spent on DVDs is just under £200. I sent the cheques out this morning. I killfiled PayPal after this.]

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,
Mythily
PayPal Finance Department

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Form Message
customer subject: Two payments denied
customer message: The amount of the payment: '20'
Message: 'After making many payments during the past 2 weeks for DVDs from
Ebay you have denied two transactions today for a total amount of less than
pounds twenty to people who prefer PayPay.My gold Mastercard has been
verified and is good for pounds eleven thousand at this moment. Your system
says it cannot verify the CC.

What is going on? You also charged me twice for the same membership on 5
and 9 May 2003.

I have had to send e-mails to two vendors trying to explain why PayPal is
refusing payment. I have not had so much trouble with any one website in 5
years of online purchase, which is a must since I am housebound'

========
To: "webform@paypal.com" <webform@paypal.com>
Subject: Re: CreditCards:DeniedPayment:16:231 (KMM30454720V76839L0KM)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:13:51 +0100
--------
Rubbish!
I suggest you look in alt.english.usage.
There you (and the world) will see a copy of the letter I mailed to my
credit card company this morning.
I want nothing more to do with you or your organisation. Neither, according
to google, does over 16,000 others.
--

in disgust,

Robin Bignall

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus 2003 Pro

On Mon, 26 May 2003 12:26:40 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear robin Bignall,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
>
> Your issuing bank denied our request to verify this card. Please
> contact your issuing bank for details on this.
>
> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
> again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mythily
> PayPal Finance Department
>
> Original Message Follows:
> ------------------------
> Form Message
> customer subject: Two payments denied
> customer message: The amount of the payment: '20'
> Message: 'After making many payments during the past 2 weeks for DVDs from
> Ebay you have denied two transactions today for a total amount of less than
> pounds twenty to people who prefer PayPay.My gold Mastercard has been
> verified and is good for pounds eleven thousand at this moment. Your system
> says it cannot verify the CC.
>
> What is going on? You also charged me twice for the same membership on 5
> and 9 May 2003.
>
> I have had to send e-mails to two vendors trying to explain why PayPal is
> refusing payment. I have not had so much trouble with any one website in 5
> years of online purchase, which is a must since I am housebound'
>
>
>
>

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